I was beginning to think that maybe, just maybe – I was wrong about CityPlace.
After a colleague of mine received five offers on her awful listing at Mariner Terrace, I reconsidered my stance on the evil concrete jungle.
But alas, the latest news that a 42-storey “community housing” project will be built in the heart of CityPlace has reaffirmed my stance that this will eventually be a complete ghetto…
Could it be?
Could this be the future of CityPlace?
For those of you that are wondering, yes – I do receive hate (e)mail from owners at CityPlace asking me why I continuously bash their beloved concrete community.
And no, I don’t get a lot of business from sellers who live in the concrete paradigm.
But I have to take a stance, right? I have to let the public know what I like and what I don’t like, and I do NOT like CityPlace!
So I literally “LOL’d” this weekend when I read the column in “The Bulletin,” Toronto’s downtown newspaper, which revealed plans for a 42-storey high-rise for low(er) income people.
“Fear of increased crime rates, lower property values, and transforming a prestige community into slums sparked heated debate over a new Toronto Community Housing Corp (TCHC) project planned for City Place.”
Oh yeah – I laughed!
I have always maintained that in the long run, property values at CityPlace will plummet strictly due to supply and demand. There are too many units at CityPlace, and they are readily available even in our “red hot market.”
Surely we WILL experience a down market, no?
Surely condo values WILL drop, no?
And won’t the 15,000 condominiums in a one-block radius be the hardest hit?
Add in the fact that low income housing is on the way, and I rest my case!
What does it say about the area when plans are put in place to attract and house families with household incomes of $35,000?
How will it affect your 1-bedroom condo rented at $1,450 per month when the building next door has 3-bedroom apartments available for $1,100 per month?
Don’t say I never warned you…
The lands immediately west of whatever the newest condo in CityPlace is (Neo or Montage, I believe) are vacant all the way to the Spadina Street bridge that separates the future of CityPlace from the historic Fort York. These lands are all owned by Concord Adex, who brought us CityPlace starting with 373 Front Street – which now seems like a gem compared to Navy Wharf, Mariner Terrace, 4K Spadina, and Telegram Mews…
But somewhere in between the 4-5 cranes which are diligently working away to bring us MORE condos at CityPlace, there is a site earmarked by TCHC for:
– a 42-storey building
-two schools capable of handling 1,190 students
-a daycare and community centre
-a 9-storey seniors housing project
Sweet.
But this isn’t “low income” housing, right”
Oh, silly me – it’s actually “affordable housing” as explained by the housing development manager for TCHC, Peter Zimmerman:
“This is not housing for low income people. It is housing for rents that are about 80% of the average for the City of Toronto. For a 3-bedroom apartment, that means about $1,100 a month.”
Right.
I mean, who would EVER consider $1,100 per month for a 3-bedroom apartment in downtown Toronto to be “low income?”
I know tons of people who live in 3-bedroom apartments for $1,100 per month……in Brantford…
The last 1-bedroom condo I rented was for $1,550 per month at 33 Mill Street, which was about 645 square feet interior plus parking and locker.
I’m not trying to justify the high rents in Toronto, but I am going to call shenanigans on the ludicrous idea that $1,100/month 3-bedroom condos in CityPlace won’t be considered “low income housing” and wont attract….well….the kind of people that live in $1,100/month 3-bedroom condos…
I have to point out one aspect of the article in The Bulletin that I did find rather amusing. Apparently, some residents of CityPlace who made the jaunt down to Metro Hall on October 14th to argue to no avail, felt that the high-rise tower would “obstruct views” and “cast shadows” on their existing properties.
Really?
You mean to tell me, you never thought this would happen – even as crane, after crane, after crane was hauled onto the sites surrounding CityPlace so that MORE condos could be built?
You mean, when you bought that condo next to a vacant plot of land, you just assumed that the vacant pile of land would remain as such?
You never thought a condo would be built there?
You never considered the idea that your view might be obstructed?
When I think of CityPlace, I think of this:
Each of these buildings is obstructed by the other!
Each of these buildings looks out at 4-5 other buildings!
North, South, East, West – there’s nothing but more BUILDINGS!
Complain about the low income housing all you want via the people it attracts, the congestion it may cause, or the lack of infrastructure to support it, but don’t claim that your views will be obstructed. After all, that’s what CityPlace is all about!
Call me insensitive if you like, but I’m going to make a bold statement: affordable or low-income housing in your neighborhood is NOT a good thing if you care about the value of your property.
Am I saying that all low-income housing is full of people who commit crimes, all the time, all day, constantly?
No.
We’ve addressed this in a previous post about the idea of putting low-income housing in Rosedale.
I’m just pointing out the very obvious; the ideas that everybody thinks but nobody wants to put into words: the insertion of low income housing into CityPlace will have an adverse affect on the price or real estate.
I’ve read a few varying accounts of how the lands will be used; go to City of Toronto’s website, the Toronto Housing website, or just read through a variety of media sources. I will say that according to some of these sources, depending on what the actual plan is, I actually do see a viable plan in place.
I always complain about “lack of infrastructure” within CityPlace, and usually I refer to the lack of amenities for us active twenty and thirty-something such as restaurants, shops, grocery stores, banks, nightlife et al. When I take the elevator down to the lobby of my building, I walk out to King Street and I have everything I need within a block’s walk. At CityPlace, you have to trek through the maze of buildings and unless you want wings at the one crummy chain restaurant or need your dry-cleaning done at the one dry-cleaner at the base of the building, you’re walking to Front Street and beyond.
But in terms of more important infrastructure – that which is needed for a residential area to be viable, the new plan for CityPlace will include two schools – both a public elementary and a Catholic elementary school, a new Toronto Public Library, a City of Toronto childcare facility, and a community recreation centre.
I’ve have always been of the mindset that eventually, CityPlace will become the most affordable housing in the downtown core without being actually labeled and designated “Affordable Housing” by the government.
If this is going to be the case, and if “New Canadians” are going to seek out this section of the downtown core to raise their families, then schools, parks, libraries, daycare, and community centres will be needed.
It’s all well and good, as long as you’re not a condo-owner at CityPlace who is optimistic about the long-term prospects of real estate values.
Don’t say I never warned you….like, a hundred times…
earth mother
at 10:53 am
Some say affordable housing, some say instant projects… when you have massive low-rent apartment towers, you will attract transient renters with no stake in upholding the value of the property… This is life in the big city, and anyone who tries to deny it is naive…..
Stephanie
at 11:45 am
The absolute worst part of the plan is that all of the “afforable housing” units are isolated in one building. It’s like the planners are trying to make a ghetto! Distributing the affordable rental units throughout the towers would help make this more of a neighbourhood. Another missed opportunity at Cityplace.
My lease is up in May and I’m getting the hell outta there.
dogbiskit
at 1:34 pm
Affordable housing works in the St. Lawrence Market area and has not choked property values. The problem with CP is that it’s an unattractive concrete jungle, too far removed from the amenities of the downtown core. It just seems to me that no matter what ends up going in there, it’s never going to have charm or a neighbourhood feel and I don’t think the low income housing will even be a major reason for that. Time will tell but I still think this place will become ghetto regardless of whether or not it contains low income housing.
Darren Louis
at 2:13 pm
You’ve been predicting the fall in city place for years now. Surely you’re patting yourself on the back now right??? Any winning lottery numbers to speak of?
JB
at 3:44 pm
What are your thoughts on the YWCA Elm St Centre near Sick Kids Hospital in Toronto and its effect on the area? That is definitely going to be lower-income/public housing.
I work near that area and want to be a tenant there, but probably wouldn’t qualify. The application criteria seem fairly specific – not just lower income (mental illness, female, single parent, aboriginal).
Jonathan
at 6:41 pm
Who doesn’t already know that city place is a ghetto?
The only people that buy there are people who are too lazy to think outside the box.
Listings are readily available and it beats having to actually research neighborhoods and buidlings in good areas, then chase down units when they become available.
It is the ugliest area of the city and I smile every time I read one of your posts that points this out.
Keep it up.
J.
Erik Van D.
at 6:46 pm
I live at cityplace and i absolutely love it. But Im 23 so maybe it’s more for my age group. I actually met my girlfriend in the elevator on the way up to my unit. She works out at super club and i had seen her a few times. Show me another condo where you can meet and interract with people like this. The night life is great here and theres always a party. If you dont like it or if your too old to handle it then thats fine. Go find an old age home or something. Im not a real estate investor so i dont care but remember that we are trying to live our lives here and a lot of us dont care about values and stuff.
JB
at 7:55 pm
I know lots of people who enjoy living at City Place. But the comments above support the view that CP is not the most ideal place to BUY property (and when you buy, you automatically become an investor, even if you are not an “investor”).
dave
at 9:18 am
“…theres always a party…”
“…a lot of us dont care about values and stuff…”
Erik, you’ve just confirmed everything that David has been saying about cityplace.
Gotta go! (…my seniors residence has a lawn bowling tournament starting. I can’t play though, threw my back out last time, a little too athletic for me…)
hypatia
at 5:05 pm
I’m not trying to justify the high rents in Toronto
Oh come on… that’s exactly what you’re doing and you know it.
If your reaction to affordable housing is to run around screaming like chicken little over property values you are in support of the exploitative system. Full stop.
LC
at 8:23 pm
Reading this I can’t help but think of the lovely towers on Wellesley between Parliament and Sherbourne. What a trainwreck of real estate. I see the same thing happening at CP in about 10 years. And its not just the introduction of affordable housing, but also the physical state those buildings will be in after years of 20-something party people tearing the place up. Unless each unit has everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, metered separately, I can see maintenance fees charging upwards along with special assessments to cover things like replacing the part room upholstery every few months, new motors for those love-connection elevators, etc. Add that to lower property values and you can pretty much write off most of your investment in this particular corner of the city.
matt
at 4:10 pm
JB above wrote:
(and when you buy, you automatically become an investor, even if you are not an “investor”).
That’s the thing isn’t it. Renting at City Place would be one thing (although the location does suck). But to buy? There are tens of thousands of units that are all the same there. How can anyone expect the values to increase with that much of the same supply. And to call City Place a community is just a joke. There’s nothing community about it. It’s cold and desolate, even in July.
Gorgon
at 5:55 pm
I’m late to this, but just thought I’d say I don’t think affordable housing is the problem with City Place. The problem with City Place is that prices were artificially inflated to begin with.
The life-cycle of high rise condos is the same almost anywhere: initial enthusiasm eventually turns to outright rejection.
You have a hell of a lot of condos in City Place that simply aren’t designed for long-term living. 1BR and small 2BR condos are doomed to be temporary residences. Nobody wants to live their lives in such a tight, confined space. We don’t want to worry about whether there is enough space to fit a simple bookshelf or dresser.
There are already very few owner-occupied units in City Place, but I’m guessing less than 10% of the units will be owner-occupied by 2015. Renters don’t feel a sense of ownership over their apartments. With each tenant, the wear and tear on the unit, and the building, becomes more evident and more extreme. Meanwhile, owners who rent are not inclined to pay for quality maintenance for their units since they don’t live there and are trying to maximize their profit potential.
Eventually, owners will be forced to rent their units at a loss (perhaps due to a major maintenance issue), and then property management companies will step in and buy up condos at bulk rates. The management companies, being significant stakeholders in the building, will hold political sway over the buildings, and use their power to force down condo fees. Maintenance, energy useage and cleaning services throughout the building will be cut, until there’s nothing left but a dirty, dodgy looking building, poorly illuminated interiors and exteriors, with transient residents and no security. Cheap materials will be used, and the condos will degrade into slums. All of this will happen by 2020. Mark my words.
People keep falling back on this idea that City Place will become an ‘immigrant ghetto’. But of course, that shows how wrong Canadians are about the character of immigrants. Most immigrants move to Canada because they want the big house in the suburbs, and the big car in the driveway. That’s the dream that they could never realize in their homelands. Immigrants have big families, they can’t live in 1BR apartments. They didn’t go through all the hoops of immigration just to live in the same condo shitholes that are being built in Delhi.
Rather, City Place is going to be a ghetto for Canada’s homegrown poor and pathetic. The foolish grandchildren of the GTA who never bothered to value education because they were so convinced of their own genius and immortality. And as they get older, and their tattoos and body piercings lose their sex appeal, they will be forced to subsist on the scraps thrown from those smart immigrants who knew a scam when they saw one.
Franki
at 4:49 pm
@Gordon, jeez that was the most ridiculous comment I’ve ever heard. What are you people, all speculators now? Come on, open your eyes for a minute. First off there’s low income housing everywhere in the city, go on there website there’s building everywhere. Also, no one can predict what happens in 10 years, the cost of real estate just keeps rising in the city. Even In a shaky economy the market stayed strong. People keep mentioning what happened with those buildings on parliment or where ever, do you know how long ago that was? Do some research, it’s impossible to replicate an economy of 20+ years ago. That’s insane! I’ve done my share of investing and buying in the city, I have a rental property at bay and college right now, there are so many rentals in that building it’s unreal. Don’t forget that you live in the city, and alot of people who work here rent. Not only in Toronto, but any major city. I don’t care what building u live in, there’s always alot of renters, our city is booming because of one thing. Investors! When u have investors buying condos, there’s a great chance for more rental units.
Kappote
at 9:12 am
Gorgon,
That is the smartest and most insightful comment posted here. You should start your own blog. I’d read it.
M-Forrest
at 10:40 am
Obviously most of you who have commented on this post have no clue about property investment what so ever. As Franki said there is low income housing on pretty much every block of this great city. Case and point; the waterfront condos at the foot of Bathurst has one the largest low income properties in all of the city; and value of those properties has increased by 25% within the last 7 years.
Its funny that everybody thinks there an investor or property speculator; chances are probably none of you or at least very few of you have ever bought a property in the city of Toronto.
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at 7:43 am
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at 1:45 pm
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Satchi
at 7:38 am
Take a look around, housing is in every neighbourhood of the city. Rosedale, Yonge and Eglinton has several buildings, and unfortunately clusters of buildings in low income areas too. It won’t bring down Cityplace, those residents lucky enough to live there will feel like they’ve won the lottery. I’ve worked in housing, the majority of people living in TCHC are not thugs and drug dealers (though they definitely are there). Housing won’t turn the area bad. The opposite will happen, that building will attract the best residents that qualify to live there. You’ve been watching too many movies son.
Lisa
at 12:45 pm
When I heard that I was p-ssed for so many reasons. But I denied it would happen until last week when two young girls in gangsta clothes almost knocked me over on the sidewalk. I then observed families with small poorly dressed multiple children heading east on Fort York in swarms. I thought most these condos won’t fit 4 children. Then I realised that it’s happening. Toronto housing is moving in the people of Regent Park and Moss Park to Cityplace! I am nobody to judge, but I have worked hard to live where I live. Why should people just be handed million dollar condos when they’re incapable of earning it themselves? What’s the point of me working my butt off all these years when I could have marched down to Toronto Housing and gotten one for free?! When I started out with two young children nobody helped me! And I’m glad they didn’t because I earned everything I have. This makes me value it. It’s not only demoralising to see what’s happening but since that potentially violent encounter with those girls I’m afraid. Crime WILL go up. Being knocked over on the sidewalk will be the least of our worries.