Here’s a topic many Realtors are afraid to touch, but personally, I have absolutely no problem with it.
Whenever I talk to prospective sellers about the listing process, I always say the same thing: “There are all kinds of business models out there, and I encourage you to investigate each one.”
There are full-service brokerages like my own, there are muddled-middle brokerages, and then there are the “listing services.”
Today, I’d like to regale you all with an experience I had where my buyer and I wondered, “Does this guy even want to sell his condo?”
Don’t take this blog post as an advertisement for “Why to list with Bosley,” or “Why to list with David Fleming.”
It’s simply an examination of what can happen when you list with a “listing service,” rather than a brokerage.
I say “can” because this is just one experience, but it’s an experience that would never, ever, ever happen if you listed with a full service brokerage.
So what is a so-called “listing service?”
Well it goes beyond a “discount brokerage.” It’s something even more discounted.
It’s not about commission, necessarily, but rather the discounted services that the listing service provides. And I say “listing service” in place of “brokerage,” because they are NOT a brokerage. In fact, they say so.
Here is the automated recording of one of the services, when you call:
“Have questions about a property? We’re here to help! But before we answer your call, it’s important that you know we are not agents or brokers. We do not warranty any of the information provided.”
Yeah. That’s what you want to hear when you call the number on a listing for a property listed on MLS, for sale!
The MLS listings for these properties are referred to by the real estate boards as “mere postings,” which refers to the fact that the sellers are not under contract with brokerages, and there are no representations or warranties about the listing, the property, or anything to do with the transaction, since the seller will represent him or herself.
All the listings specify, “Property Listed By Seller,” and perhaps this is where the problems begin.
When you call to make an appointment, as a buyer agent, you’re redirected to a switchboard, where they email the seller for you.
And that is where my story begins today!
I currently find myself in day #3 of waiting for a call-back from a seller who has listed a “mere posting” on MLS. I have a client who is very interested in seeing the property (which has been listed for 44 days…) but we can’t even get a call back.
My client emailed me earlier today and said, “They’re clearly not concerned about selling their unit,” and it reminded me of an experience I had earlier in the year, where I used the very same words in my conversation with the seller.
The following is just one example of what can happen, but if it can happen once, that’s far too often…
I was representing a buyer looking for a 1-bed, 1-bath condo in the west end, and she asked me about this listing that had been sitting on the market for 68 days, unsold, with no price reduction.
It was listed as a “mere posting” with one of those discount brokerages, but I don’t shy away from them, like many agents do. And yes, I’m being honest – many agents won’t show these properties, because they’re afraid they won’t get paid. Personally, I welcome the opportunity to negotiate with a seller who has zero representation…
I called that stupid hotline and left my contact information, and waited to hear back. It took five days for the seller to get back to me, and he didn’t apologize, or give any explanation whatsoever for the delay. He just said, “So you want to come see my apartment?”
He called it an “apartment.” That was my first clue that he was a bit off.
I told him that I wanted to show it on Saturday, and it was now Wednesday. I had called the listing service on Friday.
He said, “Well I had exams,” as if I was supposed to know not only that he’s busy, but also that this is an excuse for not coordinating a showing on his largest asset.
I asked him, “Would it have been possible to take a half hour out of one of those days to show us the unit?”
He said, “I just said I had exams.”
Friendly little firecracker, he was.
Not wanting to burn our bridge, I moved on, and asked him if we could set something up for that evening, and he said, “Geez, how about some notice?”
I found this tremendously ironic, given that he had taken five days to get back to me, and I had given 24 hours notice the first time around.
“I can come at 6pm, 6:30pm, 7pm, 7:30pm – just name the time,” I said, wondering why I was bending over backwards for this guy, when the property was over-priced to begin with. I was doing it for my buyer client, of course, who for some reason thought this unit had potential.
“Tonight is no good,” he said. “And I’m going to take some time to myself this weekend, so how about next week?”
Man, I wanted his life. He was just in a coma for five days as he was apparently studying non-stop, and now he was going to “take some time” for himself.
“I have a very interested client,” I told him, now trying to put on a bit of pressure. “She’s looking to buy a place as soon as possible, and we are going to be seeing several places this week. We’d like to add yours to that list.”
He took this as an indication that we were desperate, unfortunately, and even though I couldn’t see his face, I’m sure it had a you-know-what-eating grin as he said, “Sounds like she’s pretty gung-ho. Why don’t you bring me an offer?”
Cart. Horse. Period.
How can somebody so stupid own a $400,000 asset?
I pictured him as some 20-something kid who watches too many real estate TV shows, but does so while doing the dishes so he misses 10-minute gaps where, you know – people SEE the property they’re looking at before making an offer.
I finally lost my patience and said, “That’s absolutely ridiculous, and it’s not how this process works. Seriously, we want to see your place tonight, or we’re going to move on. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.”
He agreed to the viewing, and I told him I’d see him at 7:00pm in the lobby.
At 6:30pm, he sent me a text message that said, “Not feeling well. Let’s chat next week.”
Goddamit. I wanted to kill this guy.
In hindsight, I have no idea why I pursued this. I think I was afraid my buyer-client would think I didn’t want to show the condo because it was listed with a discount brokerage, so I tried extra hard to make this work. I went above and beyond anything that was reasonable, and if I had it to do again, I never would have proceeded.
Now that I had his phone number, I was going to hound him. I called him at 8:30am on Monday morning, twice, and it went to voicemail both times.
He called me back at about 9 or 10pm that night, and once again, didn’t apologize or explain why he took 12 hours to return my call, or why he cancelled the week before.
I asked him if there was any way we could do a daytime showing, since my client was doing her year-ends at work (whatever that means….) and she would be working late every night. She figured she could sneak away on her lunch break.
The seller told us that would work better for him, and alas, we had a solution that would fit everybody!
He said his mother would meet us at 12:15pm the next day, in the lobby, ready to roll.
My client and I arrived the next day at about ten-past-twelve, and the mother was already there waiting for us. Things looked like they were turning a corner.
We went up to the 9th floor, walked down the hallway, and we stopped in front of the unit (which turned out to be different from what we thought, since there was no unit number posted on the MLS mere posting!). The seller’s mother looked at us, smiled, and said, “After you.”
I was a bit surprised. It was almost like she wanted us to walk into the wall or something, as she motioned toward the door.
I was utterly confused, and then she said, “Do you want to open it up?”
I told her, “I don’t have the key.”
And as you might have guessed, she replied, “Well neither do I.”
“Did your son not leave you a key?” I asked her.
“No, I don’t have a key to my son’s apartment,” she said. “I was just supposed to meet you.”
I wondered what purpose she may have served if she wasn’t in possession of a key, and why the hell she was there. It didn’t make sense. There may have well been a lawn jockey or a garden gnome sitting there in her place.
I called the seller, and he red-buttoned me twice, before I called him a third time and he answered, “Holy crap what the hell dude?”
If I didn’t know better, I would have thought I did something cruel to him in another life. I couldn’t understand why he was being so difficult when trying to sell his largest asset!
“Yes, it’s me again,” I told him. “I’m standing here with my client, and your mother, outside the door to your condo. She has no key – did you know that? Were you supposed to leave one for her?”
With absolutely no answer whatsoever, he just said, “Ask concierge to open it with their master,” and at that point I thought maybe this was a scam and this lady was his partner-in-crime, and this was a rouse to get into some random person’s unit.
We went downstairs, and the concierge looked at me like I was insane for asking to be let into a unit with a master key. The mother was in the process of showing the concierge her driver’s license, when finally my client – this very small, reserved bookworm of a girl, said, “F#&$ THIS!”
The lobby went quiet. I didn’t know she had it in her!
“Thank you for your time,” she said to the mother and the concierge, and she walked out of the lobby.
I went outside, and she apologized profusely.
The experience would have ben a lot worse for me personally had she not given me the old, “Thank you so much, you’re so hard-working, and you go the distance for me” pep-talk that I don’t mind hearing once in a while.
She jokingly said, “From now on, I will never complain about the great ‘lockbox search’ again when we’re looking at condos,” and we agreed to let this one go, and move on.
I expected that to be the end of it, but it was not. How could it be? Crazy stories always get crazier!
The seller called me that night, and the next morning. And every day for the next week.
I knew that if I answered his call, I would let loose a tirade of words and phrases that are likely illegal in some countries, so I simply dodged him.
He called me multiple times per day for probably 7-8 days, and left me voicemails each time.
Finally, after a 3-4 day break, I thought I’d lost him, but I answered a call from “Private Number,” and it was him!
Before he could say much, I told him that he was insane, a stalker, calling me like an obsessed 12-year-old girl, and that I had no interest in viewing his condo, or doing business with him.
That’s when he swallowed the last of his crazy pills, and said, “You have a legal obligation to present ALL qualified properties to your buyer client, even those who might not be willing to pay a full commission. If you don’t show my condo to your buyer, I’m going to file a complaint with the Toronto Real Estate Board!”
Complaints are filed with the Real Estate Council of Ontario, so I didn’t take his “threat” seriously. But it was interesting how he knew that there is a section of REBBA that refers to a Realtor’s responsibility to present all qualified properties to a client, regardless of circumstance.
I simply said, “Don’t EVER call me again,” and I hung up.
Thankfully, that was the last I ever heard from him.
I followed the “progress” of his condo just out of morbid curiosity, and it sat on the market for another three months, before he listed it with a different discount brokerage
It never sold.
As I said at the onset, not all experiences with “mere postings” are like this, and clearly the reason I’m telling this story is because it’s absolutely insane.
But these “mere posting” properties are always difficult to get into, and you have to chase the sellers down half the time.
Aren’t you better off listing with the worst Realtor in the city than these “mere posting” services?
The only thing worse than the worst Realtor in the city, is any seller trying to sell his or her own property…
IanC
at 8:11 am
Interesting…
I thought if you engaged a real estate agent, and bought any house whether listed or unlisted, as a buyer, you would pay your brokerage the typical split for a listing (up to 3%?). If pre-negotiated, it should not be a problem for the buyer. It would be topped up to 3% if the seller was only paying commissions of zero, 1% or similar.
Same situation if you go to buy a properly that is not even listed on MLS – posted on a light poll.
Look at a random MLS listing by private sale by owner that sold.
Let’s say it sold for X dollars. It probably took more days to sell than your average condo for obvious reasons. Buying agents are reluctant to bust their ass for someone cheap who may have a tendency not to be realistic in their price in the first place, besides the commission issue.
Let’s say you are buying that condo. If that condo had full a full service brokerage, it probably would not be selling at X. With the support of a brokerage, better networking, and a larger pool of hungry agents – they would sell at a higher price, and in a fewer number of days. They would simply have more buyers available to be interested in the property.
They seller knows this, and they price accordingly. As long as they don’t drop their price more than 0 to 6%, they figure they are making money, and some may be prepared that it could take a bit longer to sell than a traditional service. If they price it properly and are fortunate, they may do fine.
Well, as a buyer, I figure a properly listed property that sold with no service at X price, well I would be paying a price of more than X + 3% if it was a standard listing. Simple answer – I would be competing with more buyers.
I don’t mind paying a buyers commission to my agent if the seller if firm on zero commission when negotiating. In a standard deal, the buyer is really paying the commission anyway – 94% of my money as a buyer goes to the seller, and the rest to commission. So you pay – whether directly or indirectly.
But just like any sale – some sellers are rational and some are too attached to imaginary numbers – whether fully listed or discount listed. I just think there’s more of the latter in the in the sale by owner. I’d worry more about being unlucky and getting a “wacky” vendor than paying my broker 3%.
Tracy
at 5:45 pm
A true horror story regarding an own seller. I take exception to the original author’s comment about an own seller being the worst example of the worst. It seems the professional ran into the perfect storm of an immature seller who was not motivated in the least to sell. Chroscklh sums it up best, “took him 32 years to get out of basement”.
Chroscklh
at 4:05 pm
This guy more clown than guy on unicycle with shiny red nose. He no want sell condo, obviously, probably because mama own it and he no want live mama basement – took him 32 years get outta basement, not anxious go back in. The IanC comment hella hard to understand but I no English too good. I think the jizz of it is “U no use realtor, I know this, I pay you less.” therefore “for sale by owner” savings evaporate. Some people so cheap. I help father – he overseas – sell investment condo. He say “post ad in lobby, for sale by owner, save commission.” I laugh. He get mad. He turn off Ham radio. Now, is any realtor better than no realtor? No think so. I interview 3 realtor: one say “dont fix a thing. price low. this bad unit. need sell quick” (Penthouse, great view, high ceiling, 5 yr old). I think “yeah, you need sale quick – judging by ill-fitting suit.” Second realtor say “great potential. just need gut reno – new kitch, new floors. Staging.” Third realtor, most professional, “hot market” (this 2009), “no reno, no stage, list low, offer date” – condo sell 30% above ask!!!! 20% above what father wanted with no realtor. Father not even happy. He turn off ham radio. Back home, you list no realtor, you liable get paid in bushel of turnip. Can no refuse, if meet price. Is law. Secondary market in turnip is brisk, yes, but is no convenient.
Amelia Haynes
at 8:37 am
I enjoyed that …. 🙂
Huuk
at 11:10 am
You, sir, are amazing.
Kyle
at 11:55 am
This is line is so awesome: I think “yeah, you need sale quick – judging by ill-fitting suit.”
But just one thing, i think the word you were looking for is spelled “gist” 🙂
Libertarian
at 12:46 pm
I understood Chroscklh’s comment better than I did IanC’s.
Taka
at 7:28 pm
Chroscklh, you absolutely rock. I love your comments.
“Secondary market in turnip is brisk, yes, but is no convenient.”
Absolutely brilliant. Thank you.
Amelia Haynes
at 8:40 am
I would have answered his calls just to rub it in his face that the client walked because of his bad behaviour. Jackass.
David
at 12:18 pm
David, very entertaining post. I think that guy has excellent potential as psycho ward patient or a politician. But seriously, I commend you on your patience. If it was me, at the first sign of this crap, I would have told your client not to bother with this one and move on. It’s not like there’s shortage of condos in Toronto.
Interesting that he said, ” “You have a legal obligation to present ALL qualified properties to your buyer client…” Sure but are you still bound by that rule if the jack-ass seller is playing games and doesn’t want to co-operate?
Just imagine if you had stuck it out and actually tried to complete a sale with this guy. No doubt it would have gone badly for everyone and would have ended up in court.
DW
at 8:59 am
I used to think it was a great idea negotiating directly with the owner. The idea was that we would split the commission that would typically go to the Realtor and both come out ahead.
However, after having looked at probably a couple hundred FSBOs (prop guys, com free, craigslist!), I have actually come to believe that most sellers who don’t use a Realtor are the greediest of a sellers and usually ask prices above what a Realtor would ask. They’re essentially saying: screw you buyer, I’m keeping all the commission, plus more, for myself. Over the last 6 years, I only purchased one property direct from the owner and in that case, it was not listed yet. I was actually viewing an MLS property across the street, noticed they had moving boxes in the garage, and came back later and knocked on their door.
JC
at 12:40 pm
Entertaining but not so much when you’re in the thick of it.
Even more so when the person you’re dealing with is another “professional”.
There are Realtors that apparently have no regard for timeframes and work when they want.
I did a deal several years back with a Realtor from a well-known Brokerage. I sent him an offer on Friday with an irrevocable on Saturday evening. Any calls to him on Saturday or Sunday went unanswered. Finally on Monday afternoon I got ahold of him. He said he was going to sign back. Sign back what? My deal is dead! It expired 2 days ago, the least you could have done was sign back BEFORE the irrevocable.
“I don’t work weekends”.
WTF?
I’ve run into the same thing with another Realtor at the same Brokerage – so I simply avoid that Brokerage whenever possible. It seems like everyone there emulates the boss so much that they are arrogant, my-time-is-more-valuable-than-your-time ***holes.
Just recently I dealt with another yahoo that took off for a week without having anyone take her work for her while she was away. “Your offer will have to wait until I get home”. She also acts as a property manager for several units and is the recipient of a lawsuit just waiting to happen. She hasn’t a clue about the LTA.
That’s doing the best for your client! These people were all from “full-service” Brokerages.
Name
at 2:33 pm
With a house currently on the market I looked hard at selling privately after a bad first experience.
When we sold our first home in the Beaches area of Toronto we hired a relative, hungry for listings.(The adage is so true:Don’t hire anyone related to you.Damned if you do damned if you don’t-we took a chance as was only 1% commission).They were handling the sale of the ‘new’ home too, so would make full commission on that sale)The person was ‘green’ not experienced at negotiations.She brought in her friend,a guy with 20 yrs experience.We had two offers but this other agent jumped up in the middle of a bidding ‘skirmish’ and said sold!! I was stunned the buyers agent sat there blinking until he recovered and great for his clients got the house at a price below what they were willing to pay.Turns out the agent was on meds, forged the offer of sale with our initials charged us the full 5% anyway.Also the price was Below) what we had said we would sell for!He also threw in a nearly new dishwasher we were going to keep (I’ll buy you a new one-still waiting over a decade later)
he also shaved the commission on the ‘new’ house giving up his 2.5 commission ‘to close the deal’ .We could have sued but it was our relative that was on the listing, not the unethical one (who has run in the last two elections for Councillor-so shameless he put his mother’s suicide on his website bio for pity votes)
There is a lot of scum agents out there.This guy owed desk fees and God knows what else, so all he wanted was a quick sale and pay cheque.
The house sold in 13 days and the agents got 10 grand to pay off their debts.If it wasn’t for scare tactics used by Treb and the real estate board to warn people not to deal with private sales i would have gone that route.Too much fear mongering where sellers are convinced that only a ‘professional’ can navigate a house sale. Personally I don’t think most private sellers are greedy.Only that many private sellers have been burned by agents before and feel the 5-6% commissions do not reflect the work involved by bad agents who work only for themselves.Get a good Real Estate lawyer and home inspection and save yourself much grief & money.
Susan
at 4:06 pm
I had something similar that happened to me but was wi
Brad
at 9:18 pm
BS !!!
Marge Schaffeld
at 5:43 am
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John G McGowan
at 8:27 am
So you had a bad experience with one inexperienced owner and you tar all people who do not wish to pay your exhorbitant fees? Maybe you should stop calling it discount brokerage and call your’s gouging brokerages. The only reason that your “model” works is that the buyer pays nothing , even the the truth is it is buried in their purchase price. If the buyer were paying a cash fee your “model” would collapse pronto. The buyer would never pay you 2.5% (say $25,000) for a few minutes or hours of “work”. Unethical and ridiculous IMHO.