This is yet another first for Toronto Realty Blog: a reader is getting his very own blog post.
Blog reader, JusHinton, has convinced me to end my CityPlace “obsession.”
Here is a comment posted by “JusHinton” on my blog post from Tuesday, April 17th, 2012.
Thanks again to all of my blog readers who take the time and effort to post comments, whether they agree or disagree with my opinions.
David. I enjoy reading your blog and will continue to do so despite your CityPlace obsession but I’ll give you the first defence for CP (as you are already anticipating) and tell you why you have so many angry CP lovers directing their resentment towards you.
The reason is: while you may be part correct in your assessment in some aspects of CP, you seem delusional in other aspects.
Here’s a list of problems with your analysis:
1) Differentiation
While some of the buildings and units in CityPlace may have issues, this does not describe ALL the units and buildings.
You make no point of differentiating buildings and instead, treat the entire development as a disaster. The truth is some buildings AND specific units have developed negative reputations while others are loved by the residents and have great water views, etc. This actually undermines your core argument because plenty of people are wise enough to identify this contradiction. They meet many CP residents who love where they live and a few others who are disappointed.
Also, locations within CP can offer easy access to different areas. Some people live on Front St. close to the city and others on the East side of Spadina on Bremmer close to the airport. These are totally different places with different advantages/disadvantages.
2) Falling Glass and Condo Problems
You pick on CP with a special amplified disdain, even though plenty of celebrated buildings in Toronto have gotten negative reviews from owners and had falling glass issues. For instance, the Trump Tower and TIFF building which command upwards $700 per square foot and are considered prime addresses in the core have also had falling glass, yet you have no article bashing them with such glee as you have above.
TIFF especially has had a rash of high-profile incidents despite Miele appliances and claims of “luxury” living
..
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20110803/tiff-bell-lightbox-glass-110803/
Issues with new condos are quite common, not just in Toronto, but in most places around the world.
One could argue easily that CP gets more press because of its location and high-visibility. (In fact, let me add -Toronto’s building codes are very conservative by many standard south of the Canada).
3) The “Location” Argument
You insist that CP is poorly located, yet that argument seems presumptuous.
Agreed that visiting CP east of Spadina has no real attractions (right now). But for one, the neighborhood is not nearly complete and some new developments may help bolster its perception BY THOSE who feel it is poorly located.
For instance, the South-Core movement, the Globe-and-Mail building revamp, the Library, the Aquarium at the CN Tower and the possible Whole Foods at Front and Bathurst could all help bolster the perception of the surrounding area.
The Front St. buildings were once surrounded by nothing but now those buildings are much closer to new developments in the city.
The other point is, for many, CP is still considered to be a good location. The centre of King West is a literal 5 minutes walking distance from the Front St. condos and so is the waterfront which some people actually enjoy. The Ritz Carlton is another 7 minutes from many of the first units built. In addition, easy access to the Rogers Centre, the airport, the Thompson and the Gardiner is prized by many CP residents.
I, and many, would never want to live on King West in the middle of the drunken mayhem of the weekend but prefer close access.
4) The “CP will be Ghetto” Argument
First, one could argue the St. Jamestown comparison (that you have made previously) is poor one because St. Jamestown was never housed by the young “yuppie” single the developers hoped to attract, the building were rentals (I would estimate 50% of CP residents are actual owners) and CP is not in an area that could be easily VISIBLY “isolated” like St. Jamestown – it’s on the skyline.
In addition, at the very core of your other argument – “that CP will become a ghetto”, there is a bigger problem at the root. That’s Canada’s and Toronto’s reputation. CP’s Rogers Centre location would mean that CP would destroy Canada’s reputation at large because most tourists, especially American tourists who visit Roger’s Centre, the CN Tower and the soon-to-be complete Aquarium are familiar with CP and they would be left with impression that Canada is country with a slum on their skyline, as they drive in from the Gardiner.
Sorry, David, it’s just not likely that this would just happen under our noses without government officials providing input (as we now see already with Adam Vaughan). I seriously believe the Prime Minister himself would intervene if such a “ghetto” perception started brewing on the waterfront of Toronto.
5) CP Gets No Love
On the other hand, you give CP no credit for redeveloping the area when in fact, there would be probably be no King West without CityPlace residents (a long time ago) choosing the closer King st. establishments over Club-Land, nor a South-Core development for that matter. I could go on.
All I will say is that it’s the residents of CP who are flooding these areas with their disposable income.
I’m not going to pretend CityPlace is the prettiest thing in the world. It’s not to me, but it’s just not the worst eye-sore ever either.
The claims of jealousy from CP lovers are more likely because people are confused by the extremity of your attitude. Most people in CityPlace like living there and have zero issues. Most of the residents are not exactly accustom to “ghetto” life either, so some people assume incorrectly that its jealousy. I personally don’t think jealousy is at the root of your dislike. It’s simply this: CP (love it or hate it) is unfairly deemed the symbol of Toronto’s condo development because of its very visible location so it always gets the most attention (positive or negative).
It’s like the Britney Spears/Drake of Toronto condos. It’s probably not as rugged, sophisticated, specialized and cosmopolitan as it should be for Toronto. But despite the criticism, to be fair, it’s not really extremely lacking versus other condos in Toronto either. It’s more like the mainstream Top 40 artist who gets picked on as cheesy and thrown on TMZ because it’s all over the radio and not as talented as the better lesser-known underground artists. CP is not the greatest condo development nor the worst.
It’s just best price for a reasonable place.
Get over it.
I’ve tossed around the idea of an old school “Forum” on TRB, as well as a section to “Ask A Question” or “Suggest A Topic.”
But if anybody wants to take the time and effort that the reader featured above did, to submit a feature for publication, I’m all for it.
Feel free to email me at davidfleming@bosleyrealestate.com
Oh – and I mentioned at the onset, I’m so impressed with this response and the facts and arguments that are outlined, that I promise to give my CityPlace rants a rest for the time-being. 🙂
Anthony
at 10:48 am
The Reader’s response was an enlightenment on your perception of not just CityPlace but the other topics written. I give you a lot of credit for going against the grain of how most Realtors work and that’s where I am very similar to you, however the similarity stops there. I often find that once you zone in on a topic, you have a “one track mind” to bash it to death and pigeon hole the whole idea/industry without looking it at different perspective and perhaps shedding some positive light out of the situation. Your observations are often one sided.
In one of the CP rants, you said that all the buildings look the same that there was no identity but you liked the new circular (Parade) because it stood out. Seriously? Most condos across the city are square and they all look very similar to one another. To single out CP has the ones that don’t have identity is just nonsense. The article could have easily been that condos lack identity instead of JUST CP condos.
And as you recall, we had a good debate over the article named “Yet Another Conflict of Interest”, where you accused Realtors of not working in the best interest of their client because they are selling preconstruction condos instead of resales. And the motivation was the 4% that builders pay and their fancy crap cakes. According to your one example of a condo on King St West, it was over priced and again that lead to the generalization that all precons were non-profitable. Any agents who sell precons were putting their reputation on the line and you painted a spineless image them going to these condo presentations and devouring crap cakes. I thought this article really showed the shallowness of your thinking on different levels and why your views are just too simplified to the point of making little sense. I believe to be an astute observer of real estate, there is a difference between looking down a tunnel versus looking it at things in detail. You know the saying “God is in the detail”…that’s the degree of separation that makes a wise man and a man that claims to be wise.
In a parallelism to hockey, Don Cherry at his ripe age of 78 is still the sharpest kitchen knife in the drawer and is still the best at providing the most insightful commentaries while his younger counterparts just lack that level of comprehension of the game.
David Fleming
at 11:52 am
@ Anthony
I think you’re still hurting from the abuse you took for your comments on “Yet Another Conflict of Interest.”
You sell pre-construction condos as a large part of your business, and that leads me to believe that you have very little interest in how your clients’ properties fare.
I let my readers attack you on that post; I didn’t feel the need to do so personally, but now that you’ve called me out here and compared me to Don Cherry, I can say that any agent who “specializes” in pre-construction condos is either a moron with no idea how to put numbers together, or somebody who really, truly, doesn’t care if his clients sink or swim.
We are all still waiting for you to show, with numbers, how buying a pre-construction condo today at $650/sqft downtown when the same building next door is selling for $600, make sense, given the enormous amount of risk and uncertainty. Why don’t you go back and read the comments again?
I know who you are; I’m familiar with your work. Why don’t you put a link to your website and let everybody judge for themselves?
Anthony
at 3:25 pm
David, it’s sad to see how you come to a judgemental conclusion on things.
“You sell pre-construction condos as a large part of your business, and that leads me to believe that you have very little interest in how your clients’ properties fare.”
I don’t want to keep repeating myself, but clearly you’ve stated your position over and over again.
I don’t have to prove to you that I care about my client’s performance. It’s futile if your mind is set. But your judgement is nothing more then an opinion rather then a factual debate (something that was lacking your rant).
You gave one example and attempted to build your argument on that one shaky foundation but yet you require me to provide all kinds of stats to prove my point? I think it’s really the author that has to provide enough evidence before untaking an argument. Had you encompassed a larger area from east to west with examples by region ie. Leslieville condos, Queen West condos, North York condos and examine their prices compared to their resale neighbours, then your argument would be more solid. Maybe you are not a specialist in the precon department since you ignore them for the most part. Hence how can you really claim to speak about them as being an authoritarian.
All I have said earlier and again is that you should look at prices from project to project because it really does vary. They are not all selling at $650/sf! Why haven’t you discussed prices below $650/sf and compared other neighbourhoods in the downtown area. Some are selling under $480/sf. Others are selling at the same price per square foot as resales. Some are selling higher then resale prices but so what? They are priced for the future because they will not be completed in 3-4 years from now.
Have you compared the type of finishes, higher end appliances, design, better amenities, newer technology and so forth compared to the older resale condos? It will also affect the value.
There are a lot more factors then looking at pricing at face value. Again that’s where you seem to generalize down to the bare bones.
I’ll give you several example why I still see value in new condos.
Studio condos phase 1 has Miele appliances, built in kitchen appliances and was selling under $600/sf. A lot of the units were in the $570/sq foot. Name me a resale condo in the immediate area that was a comparable product of the same standard that is cheaper and a better buy.
At the Carnaby a two bedroom unit with 2 washrooms goes for $355,000 or $500/sf with a Metro supermarket to be built underneath. Find another resale condo in the immediate area that beats that value.
On the east side in Leslieville, The Carlaw is selling at $480/sf while the resale is asking for over $500/sf.
At B.Streets at Bathurst and Bloor, the price per square foot was as low as $530/sf with very high end kitchen and appliances (nothing the likes a comparable resale in the area has). That pricing is unheard of for a location next to a subway in the downtown core. My client purchased a 700sf unit for $355,000 or $507/sf. You’d have to be complete stupid to think that’s expensive given that even resales are more pricey.
So if you can comment on any or all of these projects and prove to us why you don’t think there’s any value there, I’d love to hear it!
My link is always there if you click on my name. Go read my blog and feel free to comment as you like.
Daniel
at 3:37 pm
Go to Anthony’s website. He has an autographed photo of……wait for it….HIMSELF!
TJ
at 4:20 pm
His website is a portal for pre-construction. It’s nothing but flashy artist’s renderings of new buildings. I see the marketing behing this. I’m sure Google directs a lot of people here, but as somebody that agrees precon is dead in Toronto, I think this is a very shady practice. You all have to make a living, but this is the true definition of a snakeoil salesman!
Anthony
at 5:43 pm
So all of a sudden everyone is an expert. So TJ let me ask you what do you know about condos in the Annex, Little Italy, Leslieville and so forth. Please enlighten me with your knowledge of these areas or some aspect of precons before you slander me.
1st Quiz question: What’s the price of a one bedroom and den with parking at the Mosaic condo at Spadina and Bloor? Compare that with B.Streets and tell us what the difference is. Hint: the answer is on my website. Read my in depth analysis of these areas.
Using words like “shady” when you haven’t proven a thing pointless.
Still waiting to hear from Mr. Fleming about his expertise on these developments as compared to their resale counterparts.
David is trying to sell a 2 bedroom at the west side gallery lofts for $369,900 on the 4th floor (with future obstructed view). The quality of this condo is known to be very poor. Meanwhile a precon across the street at the Carnaby is selling for $370,000 but on the 18th floor clear view of the lake. It will also have the convenience of a Metro supermarket attached to it hence it adds more to future growth and the build quality is much better. According to Mr. Fleming there is no value in precons because they are over priced! If this is the case why is the Carnaby the same price, with better amenities and a better builder. This is the kind of example that just contradicts what he’s been saying about precons.
Darren
at 5:43 pm
Leslieville is $480/sqft but resale is $500 you say? Is that $480/sqft without parking and locker? Uh huh. And when is it going to be finished? What kind of delays should we expect? How about the material changes and deviations from what was promised? What about material defects? What about a year-long occupancy period OR WORSE? What about the project potentially falling thorugh? What about the builder’s shoddy track record? And above all, what about the fact that you can sell a resale condo in a couple of days if the market begins to drop, but you can’t sell your piece of paper/promise of a pre-construction condo for 3-4 years? Thanks for your BS explanation Anthony but nobody here is buying it. Keep your Miele dishwasher.
Anthony
at 6:04 pm
@Darren
What are you moaning about? Seems like just about every negative aspect that enters your mind short of the sky is falling. You forgot to mention about the falling glass, water pipe bursting, damaged foundation, etc etc etc in existing condos. But let’s not point that out because there’s no inherent risk in existing condos at all.
A Friend
at 6:01 pm
He’s not replying to your stupid comments because he’s too busy laughing at the fact that you spent two hours on HIS blog today, meanwhile your own site is a joke. Oh, that and he’s out doing 60 deals per year while you eat “crap” cakes at condo launch parties. Check your spelling. Sorry Dave, I had to jump in here. You dont’ have to post this if you dont’ want to.
jeff316
at 1:11 pm
Have you watched Coaches Corner lately? Don has lost a step or six. He’s getting Bob Cole-esque. He makes frequent mistakes and is showing signs of age. He’s one of the most predictable, one-note, uninformed commenters out there. I’m a fan, but the last thing I would ever call him is ‘sharp’ or ‘insightful’.
David Fleming
at 2:36 pm
@ Jeff316
I agree about Don Cherry. I don’t watch him anymore. It’s getting really sad – he’s a senile old man who has to be babysat by Ron McLean, who is one of the most knowledgable hockey people out there. I’m a hockey historian myself, and I recall a debate about renaming the trophies, when somebody suggested that the “Hart Trophy” is meaningless because nobody knows who Hart is. Ron immediately piped up and said, “Doctor Cecil Hart.” I felt so special that I knew that too; I’ve been studying hockey history since I was five. I would watch a show with just Ron McLean and be completely enthralled! I make sure to watch “Hot Stove” in between the second and third periods, since they offer more insight in eight seconds than Don Cherry does in a full segment. I hope he voluntarily steps down before they force him out.
jeff316
at 4:11 pm
In violent agreement, particularly re: Hot Stove. I still watch Don because he’s funny and for the nostalgia of those youthful years when Hockey Night in Canada was a highlight of the week and, with games starting at 8 back then, having made it to Coaches Corner meant I had already stayed up well past bedtime!
It’s too bad that Don didn’t bow out a bit earlier – by staying in a little too long he’s become less of a fond national icon and more of a polarizing figure representation of a larger cultural debate.
But I feel mostly for Ron McLean who will be remembered by the vast majority of people as Don’s chaperone, instead of for his encyclopedic hockey knowledge, strong interviews very solid amateur sports coverage and common, relatable appeal (unlike so many attidunal jerkface American and TSN sportscasters.)
David Fleming
at 4:34 pm
Jerkface American TV sportscasters?
There is simply no worse offender than Mike Milbury. How this man is still gainfully employed, I have no idea.
I remember when he was the GM for New York – watching in awe as he made one awful move after the next. I knew that one day, we would anlayze these trades and wonder how he was ever employed by the NHL, but I can’t believe that he’s STILL affilliated with professional hockey!
Roberto Luongo and Olli Jokinen for Mark Parrish and Oleg Kvasha??? How is that possible? Possibly the most lopsided trade in NHL history?
Drafting Rick DiPietro 1st overall? And trading Luongo to do so?
Trading Bryan McCabe and Todd Bertuzzi for Trevor Linden?
Oh – and what about Zdeno Chara and Jason Spezza for Yashin, who he signed to a $90 Million deal?
jeff316
at 9:20 am
Oh Milbury is a moron alright, I don’t dispute that. I just hate this new breed of sportscaster they seem to have on TSN and some of the American networks…every one has a nickname, calls everyone else by a nickname (real or invented), always smug, thinks they’re funny, trying way too hard to get noticed and have an attitude. Those are the jerkface sportscasters, some American and some not. Just present the info – the show is the news and the highlights. Onrait, O’Toole, Dutchyshen, etc ., stop trying to be the show. And I remember watching TSN when the only two women were Teresa Kruze and someone else – and they were both canned for no reason, and what a change, now, the sports networks are all full of women, hired for their… Anyway, now I’m just ranting and polluting your blog.
David Fleming
at 10:09 am
Wait…..you mean Jennifer Hedger, Kate Bierness, and Natasha long-polish-name were only hired for their (extreme!) good looks? I thought it was for their ability to constantly mis-pronounce players’ names…
I remember when Teresa Kruze was still Teresa Hergert. Most kids watched Flintsones at 8am before school; I watched TSN on channel 24!
The epitome of professionalism was Jim Van Horne at 6:30pm on weekdays. His moustache alone said “authority.”
Anon
at 12:31 pm
hahaha I remember anthony! He got his balls beaten in during that post! Let’s see him write another ten thousand word response.
Chuck
at 1:01 pm
Good for you for showing you’re fair and impartial and can admit when you’re (sort of) wrong. I disagree with the above comment that you’re one-sided and lack vision. I like to hear your opinions on everything, and it’s up to the readers to agree or disagree. If you were less one-sided, you’d be like everybody else out there selling their mother to get another paycheque.
jeff316
at 1:07 pm
I’m sort of on the fence about City Place. I don’t think it is as bad as its detractors make it out to be. I also think that its supporters paper over some of its many negatives.
I think this retort is reasonable and fair – save for response #4 re: potential for City Place ghettoization, which extremely weak for a numebr of reasons
– St Jamestown did at first attract singles and yuppies – the composition of the neighbourhood changed over time
– the argument about visual isolation is irrelevant
– skyline placement is not a primary concern, City Place is not that prominent and will become more and more hidden as Toronto’s skyline develops
– the Gardiner is a good case in point – it looks terrible and it’s right there in the midst of the waterfront development and people have been talking about it’s impact on the waterfront for ages
– as for proximity to the Rogers Centre et al, this will have little effect on City Place – numerous large cities have marquee venues and attractions in very bad areas of the city…look where the Gardens are and its’ neighbourhood
– tourists are not familiar with City Place, it is a housing development and has nothing to do with the surrounding attractions
– government is not going to step in and spruce up City Place – it is a private condo development – particularly over other public spaces or institutions. Sparse infrastructure dollars in an increasingly austere cliamte will never go toward sprucing up private condos
– the Prime Minister will not intervene
I totally get why City Place residents get defensive – they’ve become a lightning rod for what is a larger discussion about condos and developments in this city. I’m not suggesting that City Place will become a ghetto – but the response presented here is rooted more in owner-influenced positive thinking, and not reality.
Kyle
at 2:40 pm
I don’t love or hate CP, but what i do find concerning is that there is very little diversity to the neighbourhood. Look at any vibrant neighbourhood and you’ll see a lot of mixture: different income levels, different household make ups, different occupations, night life vs daytime life, different ages, different zoning and building usages, etc. CP is basically a giant block of 0, 1 and 2 bedroom condos. And those that live in them are typically very close in age. The population is very transient. The majority of owners are first time buyers with a tight budget or landlords. Unfortuntely these are not the building blocks for pride of ownership or for a desirable community.
In my opinion what CP needs is for developers to add:
– Some larger units that people can actually live in for more than 5 years. Maybe even raise a kid or two in.
– Some higher end units, so that it isn’t the place you buy, when you can’t afford to buy elsewhere.
– Some retail on the ground level of the buildings.
– More green space
David Poon
at 2:52 pm
Some of these points are pointless, but a few are valid. However…based on my experience with the place…I’m still going to call it Shittyplace.
Joe Q.
at 3:39 pm
Does anyone in the industry ever measure mean time to resale for condo developments? e.g. how long after purchase, on average, do units get “assigned” or re-sold, and how do the numbers break down by unit size or location. That’d be interesting data.
Mike
at 10:29 am
Ok ok, we know cityplace is not the greatest. We can’t predict what the area will be in 5-10 years, it’s impossible. @kyle, the truth is that there’s quite a bit of retail around cityplace already and there is more proposed around the park and library. It’s a newly built area and is better than what was there before, I think we have to sit back and see what happens here. As for the ghetto comments, that’s unlikely due to the fact of proximity to major tourist attractions.
Scott
at 12:42 am
Interesting defense of CityPlace. Kudos to Dave for giving JusHinton’s post its own forum, even though for the most part it runs contrary to his own beliefs.
I agree with jeff316 that response #4 is largely without merit. But overall, JusHinton’s (overly?) optimistic viewpoint gives one hope that the entire development isn’t one ill-advised, poorly planned, eyesore of a mistake.
But the best part about this entry? Anthony’s ensuing comments. That guy’s a riot!