Well, not the sky, but rather the glass from CityPlace condominium towers.
I’m sure this will start yet another fire with the (few) pro-CityPlacers, but you simply MUST read this article from The Star…
Builder To Use Mesh To Combat Falling Glass Concerns
Laurie Monsebraaten
Toronto Star
A safety concern about falling glass from downtown condominiums is prompting a developer to take precautionary measures.
Concord Adex sent letters this month to residents of three condo towers — Parade at CityPlace near Front St. and Spadina Ave, and Discovery I and II at Concord Park Place near Sheppard Ave. E. and Provost Dr. — advising them of plans to immediately install protective mesh on their glass-paneled balconies as a safeguard.
Balcony glass exploded in a handful of downtown condominiums last summer. Pedestrians were hurt, though their injuries were described as minor, as glass shards fell to the street.
Since Concord used the same glass supplier, it didn’t want to take any chances, Arash Beheshti, Concord’s vice-president of construction, explained in the letter sent to residents. He said there is no evidence that the glass is “deficient,” but since other developers have had problems, “we are not taking chances with people’s safety.”
The developer has been working with a glass expert, architects and engineers to understand the problem, he added.
Trudy Clark and her husband who live on the 6th floor of 10 Capreol Crt. are pleased Concord is being proactive.
“They are doing this to prevent any accidents and for the safety of all the people in the condos,” she said.
“It’s good. It seems like they are doing the right thing and that’s the way they presented it,” she added.
Clark isn’t worried about her own safety, but since her balcony overlooks a common courtyard-barbeque area where some units have private terraces, she doesn’t want anyone below getting hurt.
“If something were to fall on those terraces, it would be a pretty big concern,” she said.
Cathy Carr lives in one of those units.
“I guess I should be concerned because if glass fell, it would fall right on my patio,” she said. But since she is a tenant and moving to Ottawa at the end of May, it is not really an issue for her.
“I guess if I were an owner I’d be wondering if (the protective mesh) was really going to do the trick. And I’d be concerned it wouldn’t look all that great.”
Phone and email messages to Concord Adex were not returned Sunday.
Area Councillor Adam Vaughan is pushing for answers.
Toronto’s building department has been investigating the falling condo glass and has sent its findings to Queen’s Park to see if the provincial building code needs to be reviewed, Vaughan said.
“But it seems to be more of a manufacturing issue than a code issue,” he said.
“Glass spanned the way it is and mounted on the outside of a balcony is not the problem if it is manufactured properly,” he said.
“The question then becomes, is it an external coating on the glass or an internal laminate? What’s the best way to strengthen it so the span can still be reached?
“I think they have come to the conclusion that internal laminate is the best way to go,” he said. “I think it has to be the industry standard.”
Lanterra Developments, which had problems last summer, is replacing tempered glass panels in balconies with laminated glass similar to that used in car windshields.
The next issue for downtown condos is wind, Vaughan said. Glass is tested for strength against someone pushing out from the inside. However, only now is it being tested for wind shear, or wind pushing from the outside.
“Is the wind creating a condition that is weakening that glass? We haven’t got an answer back on that yet,” he said.
Ah, yes, CityPlace!
I feel as if more and more of its residents are starting to take out their frustrations on yours truly.
It’s a well-known fact that I don’t like CityPlace, for reasons that I’ve shared a thousand times and won’t get back into.
I get a lot of heat over it, but here are the top three interesting interactions with residents over the past month:
1) A man walked into my open house at 3 Market Street two weeks ago, which a colleague of mine was hosting, and asked her, “Where is David Fleming? I want to talk to him. That guy is my most-hated real estate agent in the city. His ideas about CityPlace are so ridiculous!” I’m flattered that somebody came into an open house, for a property he had no interest in, just to pick a fight with me.
2) A recent blog comment: “David I’ve been reading your blog for a few months now. However, after reading this Cityplace trash talk I seriously doubt I would ever go on your blog again. Who are you to make all these comments? Can you even become a developer yourself? If so, there will always be critics and supporters. Cityplace and any other condos in downtown Toronto all have issues of their own. For example, West Harbor City is a pretty pathetic condo in itself. I’m sure most people would agree with that. Also liberty west is another no so great area. But again whose to say it is or isn’t. Stop your bashing. You just appear to be a hater. Btw your blog should really be shut down now. Who are you? Just another Realtor
Nothing special. Actually your just a hater
Can’t build your own condos so let’s bash other successful developers. PATHETIC!!!!”
I posted back: “Who is going to shut down my blog? The World Police? Have a nice day.”
By this person’s logic – that I shouldn’t complain about condos because I’m not a developer, no person should ever offer an opinion on a movie, unless they are a director, or cheer for/against a sports team unless they are a professional athlete, or comment on whether food is good or bad, unless they’re a chef.
Gee, I wonder if this person happens to live in CityPlace…
3) Another blog comment: “First of all, David you really need to get a life and stop ranting and raving about nonsensical topics. Also your hate for Cityplace is just out of jealousy. Cityplace may not be a development you like but its been a big success for over 10 dacades. Honestly, no1 cares what you think. Its annoying. Just find something to do seriously.”
Jealousy? That makes no sense. How could I be jealous that I don’t live in a crappy building with falling glass in a congested future-slum, when in fact, I live in a gorgeous unit with a 1,200 square foot terrace that overlooks St. James Park and the downtown core?
By that logic, I would be “jealous” that this guy works at Tim Horton’s making cruellers, or “jealous” of his webbed-toes and/or inability to write like a grown adult (who says “no1” instead of “no-one” or nobody?)
So I guess the reason I’m drawing attention to my “TOP THREE” here is because I’ve heard it all, and I’ll continue to hear it. People who live in CityPlace will continue to defend it, just as ardent Leaf fans will continue to say, “They have a plan – just trust! Just wait and watch – it’s coming! STANLEY CUP BABY!!”
The falling glass at CityPlace is just another example of how poorly-built some of these towers are.
We know that other buildings have parking garages that are sinking into the ground, and others have balconies that are unstable and have been roped off.
Then we know of CityPlace buildings with massive lawsuits going on!
But that’s not even my major issue with CityPlace.
If you’d like to know how I really, truly feel about CityPlace, then simply quit your job, and read all 968 blog posts I’ve penned since 2007…
But seriously? “Protective mesh?” That’s the builder’s solution to falling glass?
MESH? They’re going to wrap MESH around people’s terraces? That reminds me of my buddy who doesn’t know how to property use a tensor-bandage for his ACL, and wraps the damn thing around his entire leg from ankle to groin; like an extra layer of skin!
Protective mesh. Now I’ve heard it all.
Another day in CityPlace, according to this “pathetic” and “jealous” Realtor who unlike most in the business, will actually put like/dislike labels to real estate in this city.
So if you’re not convinced that CityPlace has major issues after reading the article above, what will it take?
A rain-cloud that ONLY hovers atop CityPlace, 24/7?
Joe Q.
at 9:09 am
David, can you comment on the phenomenon of investors who buy condo units and then let them sit unoccupied (i.e. don’t even attempt to rent them out)? Scotiabank estimates that up to a quarter of condo units in downtown T.O. / Vancouver fall into this category. I was surprised at how large the number is.
Mike
at 9:12 am
and youve never even mentioned all the water issues a few of the cityplace buildings have had…
Tina
at 6:58 am
I would like some owners or tenants to come forward especially in the iceboat buildings or dan leckie, the mold issues are clearly being ignored…i have said this previously, I have had various rashes and infections and gone to emergency a few times in 1.5 months!!!! MOLD…do not buy,,,Estella and Simerra , (first service(my ass) property management are no better than murderers.
Darren
at 9:31 am
I never knew that city place is over one hundred years old.
Ralph Cramdown
at 1:24 pm
I think when they put that in the listing, it means the structure is a teardown and it’s land value only. That’s the meaning in Vancouver, anyway.
Darren
at 3:31 pm
I’m referring to the following that was written by someone responding to David:
“Cityplace may not be a development you like but its been a big success for over 10 dacades.”
JusHinton
at 9:32 am
David. I enjoy reading your blog and will continue to do so despite your CityPlace obsession but Ill give you the first defence for CP(as you are already anticipating) and tell you why you have so many angry CP lovers directing their resentment towards you. The reason is : while you may be part correct in your assessment in some aspects of CP, you seem delusional in other aspects. Here’s a list of problems with your analysis:
1) Differentiation : While some of the buildings and units in CityPlace may have issues, this does not describe ALL the units and buildings. You make no point of differentiating buildings and instead, treat the entire development as a disaster. The truth is some buildings AND specific units have developed negative reputations while others are loved by the residents and have great waterviews etc. This actually undermines your core arguement becuase plenty of people are wise enough to identify this contradiction. They meet many CP residents who love where they live and a few others who are disappointed. Also, locations within CP can offer easy access to different areas. Some people live on Front St. close to the city and others on the East side of Spadina on Bremmer close to the airport. These are totally different places with different advantages/disadvantages.
2) Falling Glass and Condo Problems: You pick on CP with a special amplified disdain, even though plenty of celebrated buildings in Toronto have gotten negative reviews from owners and had falling glass issues. For instance, the Trump Tower and TIFF building which command upwards $700 per square foot and are considered prime addresses in the core have also had falling glass, yet you have no article bashing them with such glee as you have above. TIFF especially has had a rash of high-profile incidents despite Meile appliances and claims of “luxury” living…..
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1151407–downtown-street-closures-after-glass-falls-from-trump-tower
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20110803/tiff-bell-lightbox-glass-110803/
Issues with new condos are quite common, not just in Toronto, but in most places around the world. One could argue easily that CP gets more press becuase of its location and high-visibility. (In fact, let me add -Toronto’s building codes are very conservative by many standard south of the Canada).
3) The “Location” Arguement: You insist that CP is poorly located, yet that arguement seems presumptuous. Agreed that visiting CP east of Spadina has no real attractions (right now). But for one, the neighborhood is not nearly complete and some new developments may help bolster its perception BY THOSE who feel it is poorly located. For instance, the South-Core movement, the Globe-and-Mail building revamp, the Library, the Aquarium at the CN Tower and the possible Whole Foods at Front and Bathurst could all help bolster the perception of the surrounding area. The Front St. buildings were once surrounded by nothing but now those buildings are much closer to new developments in the city. The other point is, for many, CP is still considered to be a good location. The centre of King West is a literal 5 minutes walking distance from the Front St. condos and so is the waterfront which some people actually enjoy. The Ritz Carlton is another 7 minutes from many of the first units built. In addition, easy access to the Rogers Centre, the airport, the Thompson and the Gardiner is prized by many CP residents. I, and many, would never want to live on King West in the middle of the drunken mayhem of the weekend but prefer close access.
4) The “CP will be Ghetto” Arguement: First, one could argue the St. Jamestown comparison (that you have made previously) is poor one becuase St. Jamestown was never housed by the young “yuppie” single the developers hoped to attract, the building were rentals (I would estimate 50% of CP residents are actual owners) and CP is not in an area that could be easily VISIBLY “isolated” like St. Jamestown – its on the skyline. In addition, at the very core of your other arguement – “that CP will become a ghetto”, there is a bigger problem at the root. Thats Canada’s and Toronto’s reputation. CP’s Rogers Centre location would mean that CP would destroy Canada’s reputation at large becuase most tourists especially American tourists who visit Roger’s Centre, the CN Tower and the soon-to-be complete Aquarium are familiar with CP and they would be left with impression that Canada is country with a slum on their skyline, as they drive in from the Gardiner. Sorry, David, its just not likely that this would just happen under our noses without government officials providing input (as we now see already with Adam Vaughan). I seriously believe the Prime Minister himself would intervene if such a “ghetto” perception started brewing on the waterfront of Toronto.
5) CP gets no love: On the other hand, you give CP no credit for redeveloping the area when in fact, there would be probably be no King West without CityPlace residents (a long time ago) choosing the closer King st. establishments over Clubland, nor a South-Core development for that matter. I could go on. All I will say is that its the residents of CP who are flooding these areas with their disposable income.
Im not going to pretend CityPlace is the prettiest thing in the world. Its not to me but its just not the worst eye-sore ever either. The claims of jealousy from CP lovers are more likely because people are confused by the extremity of your attidude. Most people in CityPlace like living there and have zero issues. Most of the residents are not exactly accustom to “ghetto” life either, so some people assume incorrectly that its jealousy. I personally dont think jealousy is at the root of your dislike. Its simply this: CP (love it or hate it) is unfairly deemed the symbol of Toronto’s condo development becuase of its very visible location so it always gets the most attention (positive or negative). Its like the Britney Spears/Drake of Toronto condos. Its probably not as rugged, sophisticated, specialized and cosmopolitan as it should be for Toronto. But despite the criticism, to be fair, its not really extremely lacking versus other condos in Toronto either. Its more like the mainstream Top 40 artist who gets picked on as cheesy and thrown on TMZ becuase its all over the radio and not as talented as the better lesser-known underground artists. CP is not the greatest condo development nor the worst. Its just best price for a reasonable place. Get over it.
David Fleming
at 11:10 am
@ JusHintin
Wow! Amazing Response!
Thank you for taking the time and effort to put this together! Best response I’ve seen in a long time!
Horrido
at 7:08 pm
This is a well-reasoned and insightful post. And I agree with all of it. The hysteria over CP is way overblown. I personally am not impressed with CP (Canoe Landing is a bit of an eyesore), but it’s hardly the worst condo project in the GTA. It’s about average, IMO.
As you say, there are many satisfied CP owners. There will always be buyers who are unhappy.
I agree that there is a potential risk that CP will become ghettoized, but it is not a prediction. Much depends on how the condo boards act. Anyone who predicts ghettoization is fearmongering and thus doing a disservice to the community.
JusHinton
at 9:10 am
Wow. David very impressed with your ability to accept alternate opinions. Thanks for reading and hearing me out!
Chris
at 11:10 am
Agreed. Love the friendly banter! At the end of the day, we all have our opinions. We don’t all buy clothes that have are one-size-fits-all so why should we all buy real estate with the same presumption. People like and have opinions on different things. If you like CP and think its a good neighbourhood/investment – buy into it. If not, buy elsewhere
Jeremy
at 9:39 am
I could care less how much you like to criticize CityPlace. What I’m getting bored of, as a reader, is how much time you spend talking about how much controversy you provoke. Of the words in this article (not counting the Star article), well over half are about your controversy and well under half are actually about glass and meshes.
Jonathan
at 11:54 am
So stop reading. Duh. I’m sure David is upset that he’s “boring you.”
Jeremy
at 4:35 pm
I rather enjoy most of the rest of the blog and find it quite informative and educational. Sorry, I should have mentioned, but I assumed that calling myself a reader made that apparent.
Floom
at 2:52 pm
If you could care less, i.e. are capable of caring to a lesser extent, that must mean you care a fair amount. As such, you must be another satisfied reader. Other readers could not care any less thus were not as rewarded as you were by the post.
Jeremy
at 5:50 pm
I am well aware of the apparent contradiction there, but language isn’t always that straightforward: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ico1.htm
Floom
at 1:39 pm
Touche -nice come-back…
New Buyer
at 9:41 am
David,
Great Blog.
I don’t disagree with your past criticisms of CityPlace. To be fair however, this balcony glass issue is not Concord’s fault. It is an issue with the glass supplier. As you know, the same balcony glass issues are emerging in other condos.
Murano and Festival Tower (condos I’d expect to see you trumpet) are experiencing the same issues. They have also have had to their balconies wrapped in mesh, after broken glass has showered onto the street.
I think shoddy build quality and poor planning is endemic in Toronto’s new condos. Whether its falling balcony glass, poor sound-proofing, or high-rise buildings designed with nearly all 1-bedroom suites.
You were on the mark with your past criticisms, but this post is very much a cheap shot.
Joe Q.
at 11:52 am
I think shoddy build quality and poor planning is endemic in Toronto’s new condos.
One wonders what the physical condition of these condos will be like in 10-15 years time. Seems like a ticking time bomb in terms of maintenance fees and assessments, depending on how the current condo boards tackle structural issues.
ANewInvestor
at 9:57 pm
I am amused by this “To be fair however, this balcony glass issue is not Concord’s fault. It is an issue with the glass supplier “.
I couldn’t help buy writing my comment here below.
IF water leaking happened, and it turned out to some defected water pipe. we can say that it is not the Concord’s fault, because it is an issue with the pipe supplier”.
IF a building partly collapsed due to defected bricks / building material from a supplier, …
Does Concord/any builder build anything that is usd in a condo? probably not.
RPG
at 11:50 am
David, I don’t know how you can take this abuse on a daily basis. If somebody posted “RPG (my name) Hater” on my website, or say, left a sticky note with this on my desk, it would ruin my day and then some. Good on you for having a thick skin. I try to read all your opinions as exactly that: opinion. But you’ve definitely got some enemies now!
DB
at 8:41 pm
You really don’t get it? It’s a bit that is all about marketing. It is like Rush Limbaugh or Rachel Maddow only on an infinitely smaller and a (unfortunately for David) less lucrative scale. While I am sure there is a core belief that is genuine the reason it comes up so much is because there is not THAT much to say about real estate in Toronto. David needs to fill at least 3 blog posts a week just like Rush and Rachel need to fill 3 hours of radio 5 days a week. If he does not people will get out of the habit of going to the blog when they don’t feel like working.
Don’t get me wrong – David is an excellent real estate agent. When I was buying my place he knew exactly how to play it and I paid 7K less than I was willing to. But let’s not pretend this is anything other than what it is.
David Fleming
at 9:27 pm
@ DB
Um, FOUR posts per week, thank you very much! 🙂
DB
at 9:17 pm
Sorry to call you out on what anyone who has taken a marketing class would know. However if you disagree with my assessment I would love to see your rebuttal.
Matt
at 10:25 am
Would never buy in cityplace. It’s the equivalent of the dreadful suburbs, only in the city.
Sukeepwee
at 11:13 pm
This is a review of the Grand Habour: 2285 Lake Shore Blvd. West, Toronto
The people who manage the condo here are useless. They are very quick to wag fingers at the unit owners but it takes them months to fix anything. There are so many contractors working here without any supervision. The workers take their sweet time because they get paid by the hour. There are so many units with water damages. The building envelope gets penetrated by rain and strong wind and result in water leaks inside the walls. The cleaners take hours, all day, to clean and polish the elevator cars. There are 3 elevators and it takes 5 minutes for an elevator to arrive because the cleaners put it on service. The people in management office communicate very very poorly with building staff so when something screws up they just blame each other and the office does not take any responsibility for any wrong doing.
Management spend the condo money on useless things instead of fixing real problems. The president of the board got a brand new door just because he didn’t like the colour of it.
Management focus their time covering their asses. When you try to speak to one of them because you have a problem they will try their hardest to avoid you. I personally have seen the two women who run management hide and ran away from a concerned unit owner.
When you have a concern and they ignore you a few times the next time you push your concern the board will send you a letter from their lawyer stating that you have to stop harassing them and that you are an “impossible ” person. People get on the board to get favours for their own units. They do not care about other units. They are corrupted. They will never show their contact info. They avoid transparency and accountability.
I thought the views here were fantastic. But after a while and you get to know how this place is ran the fantastic view will start to look secondary.
I am glad I sold my unit and moved to a house. The grand harbour was and is a nightmare and life is too short to be living in a place that is so full of misery.
Overall is rate this place very very very poor. It is looks good on the outside but this building is build very poorly and the owners suffer the most losing money and time.
The conditions look ok on the side, but wait till you open the dry walls. You are either missing parts of a vapour barrier or you have mould growing inside and you do not even know you are getting sick.
Maintenance: as far as cleanliness it is excellent because the workers take their sweet time cleaning and socializing and don’t even care if an old lady in a wheel chair needs an elevator.
Security is useless. In the summer prostitutes will try to convince anybody entering or leaving the back door that they either forgot their keys or their clients said to meet them there. When there is fire alarm and it happens on the night shift, it tales them hours to figure out how to shut it off and turn on the elevators.
Location is beautiful, but after a while you will want to move out when you experience how management runs this place.
I do not recommend living in a condo simply because the government laws are in favour of the corporation and not individual owners.
The companies who manage condos have a lot of money to hire lawyers so that individual unit owners do not a chance to argue successfully. There is also a loophole in the condo act that must be turn around to morally correct bias and to have stronger rights for owners. After all the unit owners are the building owners and management companies work for owners.
Tina
at 8:17 am
there is a hell of a lot of mould in the buildings and they do nothing!
Tina
at 8:19 am
there is serious building structure problems, mold, and they will do nothing about it. the management sucks. what about 300 front or the fly? any news on that?
Tina
at 8:19 am
mold mold mold, youve got mold, cityplace sucks
Tina
at 6:59 am
what a joke, after months of asking for mold tests, they come in with a canadian tire moisture meter and declare that nothing is there. duh….estella promising to do “several tests”, my ass.
Tina
at 7:01 am
Forget “the sky is falling”, my brain is falling , my income is falling, my lids are falling, my nose is bleeding, my ears are infected, thanks to simerra’s ignorance and covering up for MOLD, YOU’VE GOT MOLD CONCORD ADEX, AND YOU SUCK!!!
Tina
at 7:02 am
I CANT STRESS ENOUGH THE IMPORTANCE OF AN INVASIVE AND AIR TEST BEFORE MOVING ANYWHERE!!!
Tina
at 7:02 am
sitting in my living room, numb and nauseous from the MOLD in the unit. the ignorance is astounding. clearly concord has no conscience. this is why they call it biological warfare!
Tina
at 7:02 am
concord continues to ignore the MOLD problem.
Tina
at 7:04 am
make sure you get a mold test before purchasing any dwelling! my muscles are tensing up ….gotta run to the shower.
Ranjeet
at 5:18 pm
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