“Sure, But What Would That Cost In New York?”

Condos

6 minute read

May 21, 2015

Isn’t this where our minds always eventually go?

When discussing the price of Toronto real estate, whether you’re a bull or a bear, people we always want to see how it would stack up against New York City.

Is that raising the bar a bit too high?  Or is that simply the most reasonable comparison for the defacto capital of Canada which has become a world-class city?

Let’s look at a few Toronto condos, and see what they would cost in prime spots in Manhattan…

TorontoVSNYC

I swear, every week, at some point, I come home and find my wife watching “Million Dollar Listing: New York.”

After working on real estate deals all day, coming home at 10pm, the last thing I want is to sit down and watch a scripted, make-believe show that glorifies about 1% of what real estate agents actually do.

It’s like watching “Law & Order” and seeing the closing arguments last forty seconds.  My father was a trial lawyer for thirty years, and his closing arguments often took a week.

But alas, you all disagree.  You love the show – even more than “Million Dollar Listing: Los Angeles.”

Fredrik puts Josh Flagg to shame…

But I tell my wife, who works as a social worker, “Do you want to come home and see me watching ‘COPS’ or something?  Or how about ‘Intervention?'”

I’ll give you one guess as to who won this argument…

New York City is perhaps the most well-known city on the planet, and while you might rather sit under the Eiffel Tower eating a croissant, or watch Flamenco dancing in Madrid, as far as the world is concerned, NYC is where it’s at.

So is it fair to compare Toronto to New York?

Are we being a bit overzealous to compare our own “fair Verona, where we lay,” to one of the most notable cities in the world?

Agree or disagree – it won’t stop the comparisons.

Toronto has become, or is just on the verge of becoming, a world-class city, and with the real estate market showing no signs of stopping its ascent, people want to know if the last decade of run-up has been warranted.

Those who want to compare to other Canadian cities will point out that condominium prices in downtown Vancouver are probably 30-50% higher than Toronto, but others don’t stop at Canadian prices, but rather head south, to New York City.

We still have a ways to go before we even approach NYC prices, but just to add some context, I thought today I would look at three Toronto condos, and provide a comparable property in New York City.

1) Queen West vs. Soho

In September of last year, Vogue named Toronto’s West Queen West neighbourhood the second-hippest district in the world.

So how does Queen West stack up against Soho in Manhattan?

Let’s look at a condominium in the much sought-after “Chocolate Lofts” at 955 Queen Street West, right in the heart of the vibrant West Queen West neighbourhood, and directly across from Trinity Bellwoods Park.

This 1-bed, 1-bath, 500 square foot unit is priced at $319,000, or $638/sqft:

Chocolate01

Chocolate03

Not too shabby!

So what’s the most comparable area to West Queen West?

We could argue all day, and you Manhattan aficionados might disagree, but let’s look at Soho.

I’m going to look at a unit at 246 Spring Street, right in the middle of prime Soho:

246SpringStreetMap

This is a 1-bed, 1-bath, 501 square foot unit.

Check out the pics:

SpringSoho01 SpringSoho02 SpringSoho03

To me, it kind of resembles a hotel/condo, like 1 King West.

So what about the price?

$1,050,000.

That’s $2,095 per square foot.

We can split hairs about maintenance fees, whether parking is available for rent, or other features of these two units, but simply putting two units of almost identical square footage up against one another, we see that the Soho condo is over THREE TIMES as expensive as the Queen West condo.

2) Financial District vs. Financial District

Wow, that’s convenient – the two areas even have the same names!

While NYC’s “Financial District” is pretty well-defined, what we have in Toronto is lacking.  You don’t consider anything south of Front Street the “Financial District,” even though it’s probably as close to the Bay/Adelaide Centre as many of the NYC condos in the Financial District are to Wall Street, but we’re starting to see a lot of buildings pop up closer to University Avenue, and the prices are actually rising quite well.

So let’s look at one of those buildings: 21 Nelson Street.

Here we have a 2-bed, 2-bath unit, just shy of 1,200 square feet, but with a nice 160 square foot terrace.  The building was constructed in 2010:

Nelson01 Nelson02 Nelson03

Priced at $748,000, we’re looking at just over $620 per square foot.

Not bad, considering there’s a 160 square foot terrace that’s not included in our calculations, but also considering how popular this location has become for the folks who work long hours in the Financial District and want to live steps to the office, there’s value here.

Most developers in Toronto are cramming 2-beds, and 2-baths into 700-800 square feet these days, so it’s nice to see something available closer to 1,200 square feet that’s actually conducive to living!

In Manhattan’s Financial District, we have a unit at 75 Wall Street, seen on the map below:

75WallStreet

What strapping young lad, with visions of Michael Douglas in suspenders, wouldn’t want to live on Wall Street itself?

Here we have a 2-bed, 2-bath condo, 1,300 square feet, very modern, although with some pretty crummy photos.

Seriously, at this price point – make the bed in the morning!

WallStreet01 WallStreet02 WallStreet03

So for 1,300 square feet on Wall Street, how much are we talking?

Only $1,995,000.

A pittance, compared to what you would have paid in Soho for something of this size!

That’s still $1,535 per square foot, or almost two-and-a-half times what the comparable unit in Toronto’s own Financial District costs.

3) Yorkville vs. The Upper East Side

This is where things can get really crazy!

Prices in Yorkville can range from $800 – $1,800 per square foot.

Prices on The Upper East Side can range from $2,000 per square foot to, honestly, $10,000 per square foot.

But I’m trying to keep the comparison as close as possible, so I’ve selected these two buildings.

In Toronto, I’m looking at 1 Saint Thomas Street, which is south of Bloor Street, and in a very quiet pocket that is exceptionally sought after:

1StThomas

Most people think “prime Yorkville” is on Yorkville Avenue, west of Bay.  But no, that’s just where the shops and restaurants are.

I mean, if 1 St. Thomas Street is good enough for “Aubrey Drake Graham” then it has to be good enough for you or I…

There’s nothing current in the building, but a 2-bed, 3-bath unit just sold for $2,880,000 that was about 2,300 square feet, or $1,252 per square foot.

StThomas01 StThomas02 StThomas03

Really nice!

I’ve been in one of these units (and no, it wasn’t Drake’s former home…), and they’re stunning.

It’s truly “white glove service,” the likes of which is very rare in Toronto these days.

So what’s the comparison in Manhattan?

The Upper East Side, of course!

Let’s look at a unit in prestigious 530 Park Avenue:

530ParkAvenueMap

This is a 3-bedroom, 3-bathroom unit, measuring 2,503 square feet.

Here’s the description from MLS:

530 Park Ave #16D The epitome of sophistication and refinement best describes this glorious, sun-filled home. Accentuated by the owner’s impeccable renovation in conjunction with world renowned designer Juan Montoya, it has become truly one of the city’s most beautiful residences enjoying a classic layout.Elegant finishes includes a gracious rosewood paneled foyer embellished with four hand-wrought and chased ceiling lamps that welcomes you into a magnificent plaster relief artwork corridor designed by Nina Helms. Herringbone wood floors, corner living and dining room, sumptuous mother of pearl guest powder room, three gracious chambers with en-suite baths. The master bedroom walls are covered in textured Douglas Fir Natural Wallpaper while the re-envisioned master bathroom is finished in Grand Antique Italian marble and accentuated with Crystal white border, handsome library/media room in sucrose oak, breakfast room, and a chef’s kitchen with Smallbone & Devizes cabinetry

NYCPark03

NYCPark01 NYCPark02

And at what price does this charming little cottage tip the scales?

A mere $10,888,000.

That’s $4,350 per square foot, or almost three-and-a-half times what the Toronto condo at 1 St. Thomas costs.

And some might argue that this is “just another” Park Avenue condo, and that the real money is on Fifth Avenue, facing west, overlooking Central Park.  You might pay $10,000 per square foot for something absolutely prime.

Regardless, I think the comparison is fair, and the pricing is in line with the other three comparisons we made:

Soho costs 328% compared to Queen West.

Manhattan’s Financial District costs 248% compared to Toronto’s Financial District.

The Upper East Side costs 348% compared to Yorkville.

I’m sure we could play this game all day!

Of course, you could also list reasons why Toronto shouldn’t be compared to New York all day long, but I’m not trying to suggest that the two cities are of equal fanfare.  I just think the comparison, from a real estate perspective, has to be made as Toronto’s market continues to appreciate, and we need some sort of perspective on how our market stacks up against other major North American cities.

Toronto is the fourth-largest metropolitan area in North America behind Los Angeles, New York, and Chicago, so I don’t think the comparison is unwarranted.

On Friday, just for fun, we’ll take a look at two absolutely insane properties in New York City, just to make you feel warm and fuzzy as you retreat to your $600/sqft condo for the weekend…

Written By David Fleming

David Fleming is the author of Toronto Realty Blog, founded in 2007. He combined his passion for writing and real estate to create a space for honest information and two-way communication in a complex and dynamic market. David is a licensed Broker and the Broker of Record for Bosley – Toronto Realty Group

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36 Comments

  1. Kyle

    at 9:15 am

    New York is obviously far more expensive than Toronto, and rightfully so, but if you look at the drivers behind New York real estate prices, you can see a lot of parallels and you can see Toronto following a very similar trajectory. The other thing that becomes obvious when looking at the two cities is that price to median income and price to average rent are absolutely rubbish metrics, especially when looking at cities with very wide income distribution. In Manhattan where real estate is three times more expensive than Toronto the average median household income is only $66,739 USD (i.e. not much different than in Toronto 71,210K CAD). If Toronto is 30 – 50% over-priced per the bears, does that mean New York is 90 – 150% over-priced?

    1. Joe Q.

      at 9:38 am

      Kyle, the two cities have vastly different home-ownership rates. Something like 32% for NYC (all five boroughs) with Manhattan much lower (numbers from the outer parts of Queens and Brooklyn pull the numbers up). Toronto’s home-ownership rate (416) is around 55%.

      1. Kyle

        at 10:02 am

        I don’t see what difference home ownership rates make. They are a much greater reflection of historic prices than they are of current prices and i frankly don’t think they factor into the valuation discussion very much. They are a long lagging indicator. Incomes widen, population increases, house prices rise, then over a very long time period ownership rates gradually fall, because only a small proportion of households are turning over. That said you can see home ownership rates in Toronto are headed downward (very similar to what has already happened in New York and every other large city), where price to income and price to rent are completely invalid metrics.

        1. Joe Q.

          at 4:22 pm

          The home-ownership rate gives you a window on participation in the housing market. Real-estate in Manhattan might cost three times more than in Toronto at comparable median income but the slice of the income distribution that owns homes is a lot smaller. People who we’d consider very well-paid — tenured profs, quantitative guys at hedge funds — rent long-term in NYC. There’s just no expectation of owning, unlike here.

          I would be interested in your data showing home-ownership trending downward in Toronto. In the country as a whole it has trended strongly upward since the mid-1980s.

          1. Kyle

            at 5:45 pm

            “the slice of the income distribution that owns homes is a lot smaller.”

            Do you seriously not see that happening in Toronto as we speak? I recall seeing some data a long time ago through http://www.1.Toronto.ca, that does not seem to be available on line anymore, but admittedly it could have been ownership rates for houses. Regardless just stop and think about it, even up to the late 80’s middle-class, single-income families were able to own a house in Toronto (not a condo, a house). Dual income households were a big deal, giving birth to the 80’s term DINK. Now buying a house in this city on a single income is practically unheard of. Back then and even into the 90’s many of the neighbourhoods in the core, were comprised of houses owned by working class families. Today those same houses are being bought by families with two hefty professional incomes. Are you seriously trying to tell me that “the slice of the income distribution that owns” in Little Italy, Leslieville, Roncesvalles, BWV, Riverdale, Cabbagetown, etc is the same slice as it was even 10 years ago? And funny enough the Lower East Side used to also be an immigrant/working class neighbourhood in the 80’s and 90’s too and now 1,750 sqft condos in the Bowery go for $3.75M USD.

            This is why the metrics are worthless. The sample doesn’t look anything like the population it’s trying to measure. House prices are determined by active buyers, not by the population as a whole (which includes many households that will never ever own) and not by those who already own a home (which includes households that may have bought decades ago).

            Price to income assumes the buying pool has the same income profile as the population at large. I think it would be very naive and dismissive to assume the average buyers in Toronto have a median household income of only 71K. And i also think it is naive to believe that just cause 55% of the city owns, that those in the 45th percentile are still able to buy today.

  2. Joe Q.

    at 9:18 am

    David — You did a similar post a couple years back.

    https://torontorealtyblog.com/archives/toronto-vs-new-york-city/8794

    My take is about the same as it was then: the comparisons are fun, but the whole “imagine what this would cost in NYC, Toronto is such a bargain” thing only works if you can somehow correct for the big differences in income and home-ownership rate between the two cities.

    1. David Fleming

      at 10:37 am

      @ Joe Q.

      Oh my God, I’m losing my mind!

      I had no idea.

      I spent three hours on this post yesterday and not once did it feel somewhat familiar!

  3. IanC

    at 9:19 am

    Are those US prices?

    1. David Fleming

      at 10:38 am

      @ IanC

      I stopped short of doing the FX calculation. I figured everybody would assume!

  4. John

    at 10:27 am

    Interesting article. A comparison of detached houses in the 416 to detached houses in the North Side of Chicago would be worthwhile too though.

  5. TheOrginialDan

    at 10:49 am

    I was half expecting that when David mentioned the Upper East Side he would make some sort of reference to Gossip Girl…. But that might just be my unreal expectation that everyone consumes the same pop culture as me. Great Post!

  6. New Jerk

    at 2:01 pm

    Why is Toronto so much cheaper?

    To quote Alec Baldwin’s character in “30 Rock”: “Toronto is just like New York, without all the stuff.”

    1. Appraiser

      at 4:41 pm

      @ New Jerk:

      Or how about Peter Ustinov, who once called Toronto, “New York run by the Swiss.”

  7. Paully

    at 4:12 pm

    Next week, for fun, try the same kind of comparison with some other big cities like Chicago, Cincinnati, Detroit and Montreal.

  8. Appraiser

    at 4:57 pm

    @ Paully: Say what?

    Big cities? Cincinnati has a population of approx. 300,000, almost 70,000 less than in 1990! Chicago’s population is currently 2.7 million residents and peaked in the 1950’s at 3.6 Million. Presently, Chicago has 50,000 FEWER people than it did in 1990, and a murder rate that is 10 times that of T.O.

    Detroit !? You are joking, right?

    1. Jimbo

      at 8:59 pm

      Toronto “proper” is less than 750,000 with metro coming in at 2.7mil? Cincinatti has 2.1 million. Toronto has a larger gdp, but considering it is one of two (maybe 3) major cities in Canada while Cinc is one of 50, that shouldn’t be too surprising.

      1. Appraiser

        at 8:06 am

        So let’s compare apples to apples.

        Cincinnati-Middletown−Wilmington Metropolitan Statistical Area has a population of 2,155,137 people, making it the 24th-largest MSA in the country.

        At the 2011 census, the GTA had a population of 6,054,191.

        1. Jimbo

          at 8:42 pm

          Seems I overlooked the area each city encompasses. Visiting Cincinnati it seemed very smilair to the GTA, but the stats don’t lie. Still don’t think Toronto compares to the culture and and influence of Chicago so that would be a waste to compare and Detroit is an absolute disaster that is never with mentioning.

          1. Kyle

            at 9:50 pm

            While it’s debatable whether Chicago has better culture than Toronto. One thing is clear, Chicago is a once great city that has been on a steady decline. It is a more storied city than Toronto because it was a bustling world class city long before Toronto was. Chicago had a population the same size as Toronto’s current population back in the 1920’s, which peaked at over 3.6M people in the 1950’s then over the last few decades it has declined to now having a smaller population than Toronto does.

          2. Jimbo

            at 8:51 pm

            It is hard to qauntify culture, I think your analogy of a storied city may be more accurate. They both offer world class activities and I would argue it has a lot more uniqueness to it’s older buildings. One thing about Canadian cities in general is you can rarely tell the difference between someone who lives in Toronto and someone who resides in Southern Ontario, Vancouver and the valley etc. When you meet someone from New York, Boston or Chicago you can tell where they are from. I wouldn’t include LA because it is too generic. When you go to Halifax you get a donair, when you go to Toronto what do you get? That is the kind of culture I’m referring to. Nothing sophisticated just what the area or the people are known for, how they act etc.
            As for population growth? I disagree with you. The decline of Chicago proper was just the shift from city to suburb. Chicagoland is much bigger than the GTA. If we had the same infrastructure, more people would move to the suburbs but the drive to work really isn’t worth it when you consider your only way in is the 401/404 and QEW. The GDP of Chicago reflects why it is not in decline. I believe it is about twice as large which is the real reason I don’t think they should be compared.

  9. Kyle

    at 10:51 pm

    I wouldn’t compare Chicagoland (population 9.5M) to the GTA, parts of it aren’t even in Illinois. Chicagoland is more akin to the Golden Horseshoe (population 8.8M), and Cook County (population 5.2M) is more akin to the GTA (population 6M).

    Regardless Chicago proper (population 2.7M) is rapidly shrinking, while Toronto proper is rapidly growing (population 2.8M). Toronto is now the fourth largest city in North America after Mexico City, New York and Los Angeles. The original point by Paully was to see how over-priced Toronto real estate looks compared to Chicago et al. But logic would dictate that real estate in a rapidly growing city should be worth more than real estate in a rapidly shrinking city, which basically takes all the wind out of the sails of his argument.

    1. Kyle

      at 10:59 pm

      By the way Jimbo, i 100% agree with you on Chicago’s architecture and i envy their waterfront, but personally i’ll still take Toronto any day of the week.

  10. EFG

    at 10:59 pm

    Most people on here are probably too young to remember or appreciate the 1989 real estate crash in Toronto. (And if you are old enough….just because you’d like to conventiently pretend it didn’t happen, doesn’t mean that, it actually didn’t happen.)

    Anyhoooo, I remember the late 1980’s real estate boom quite well. Guess what EVERYONE was saying at the peak in 1989? You guessed it! They all were saying that Toronto real estate prices were cheap relative to NYC, London, etc. so really, prices were fine, or even cheap. I chuckled at those people back then, just as I do now.

    It’s just as crazy to say that Toronto real estate may be reasonably priced or even cheap because Manhattan prices are so much higher as it would be to say that Manhattan may be expensive or overvalued because it is so much more expensive than Toronto. By the way, how many people in Manhattan do you think are concerned about real estate prices there because prices are so much higher than Toronto???

    I grew up in a smallish city 1.5 hrs or so north of Toronto. By gosh, the median detached home price there is $260K! Prices here are massively cheap! I’m gonna contact a broker there tomorrow and buy 5 houses! And be warned Toronto, look how overvalued we are compared to this small city!

    1. Kyle

      at 8:21 am

      Ahh the old “once upon a time” argument. Who needs data and evidence when you can just refer to a completely unrelated, unconnected time in history when the Economic fundamentals look nothing like they do today? No one is saying Toronto’s real estate is going to continue going straight up forever, so if that was the purpose of your Mother Goose type argument, you needn’t worry.

      1. DR

        at 11:33 am

        You know what EFG, you make a great point….do you care to tell everyone what you did for the past 25 years? Did you benefit at all from the downturn that you “must” have been predicting. Lets hear it.

      2. condodweller

        at 11:26 am

        @Kyle – while today’s conditions are not exactly the same as the late 80’s mainly the 80% pre-sale rule, however the famous quote is those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. EFG has an interesting comparison with the NYC prices. I wonder how accurate an indicator the price gap between TO and NYC would be of a market top. Save for sudden swings in NYC prices, when the gap narrows may be a good indicator of a topping TO market.

        1. condodweller

          at 12:30 pm

          @DR – My personal experience was that my parents were looking for a new home during the years leading up to the crash in 89. They could only afford a condo and even that would have been a stretch with them taking on significant debt. They weren’t comfortable with it and decided to hold off. Their patience paid off and they were able to buy a townhouse a few years after the crash. Personally I picked up my first two bedroom condo as a recent grad with no money saved up for $92k in a building where investors walked away from their investments during the boom(they paid over $300k) and the government was selling them off for well below market value. With a $2k downpayment I saved up another ~$3k by closing for a 5% downpayment. I also bought two other condos in the early 2000’s all below long term inflation adjusted average prices. I have had an itchy trigger finger for the last three years to sell one property because I’m uneasy with the current high prices. I also have a war chest of dry powder ready to deploy should another opportunity like my first condo present itself again.

          As a point of interest, I had a friend who was dabbling as a real estate agent who came with me to the sales center of my first condo and he said the rooms were too small (it had the largest master than anything I could find at the time), and he told me he wouldn’t buy there. He didn’t; I did. I even wanted to buy a 1 bedroom as an investment but they were sold out by the time I realized the banks would lend me the money which I couldn’t believe as a new grad with no assets but I guess the banks knew it was very low risk at the time.

          I didn’t write this to brag, I used my 25 year experience to illustrate that the real estate market cycle is extremely long (26 years currently) and yes you can make prudent decisions along the way to your benefit. It just takes patience. Warren Buffet said that if you do your own research and you know the facts it doesn’t matter what anybody else tells you as long as you know you are right. I live by that every single day.

          This article has a nice breakdown of inflation adjusted prices for major Canadian cities until the end of 2013. If you want current data just extend the vertical line up a bit at the far right.
          http://www.torontocondobubble.com/2013/11/housing-bubbles-in-canada-by-city.html

      3. Kyle

        at 4:44 pm

        @ condodweller – No one is denying or forgetting that the late 80’s real estate crash happened. What i am saying is that history has to be put into context. In my opinion, blindly misapplying lessons from history where the lessons aren’t relevant is actually worse than forgetting history. To truly learn from history, i think one needs to understand the factors that were at play, and not just the outcome. I say, who cares if someone remembered there was a crash once upon a time. If they don’t know what the factors behind the crash were, and whether those same factors have any relevance today, then (contrary to the patronizing tone of EDF’s post), they actually aren’t the least bit wiser than someone who denies that history.

        In the eighties and early nineties it was a VERY different environment. There were two recessions during this period. New homes were being built and sold on spec, the supply of housing was increasing faster than real demand for housing, leading to an inventory overhang. During the 80’s the prime rate was between 10-17% and inflation was between 5 – 11%. Basically, nothing about the last real estate crash resembles today’s economic environment.

        Personally, i don’t see any reason to believe there is a signal in the price gap between NY and Toronto real estate prices. They would have to be substitutes for each other, in order for the price gap to have any real meaning. I do however think there are similar themes (but obviously to different extents) that are at play. Such as, having rising populations, urbanization trend, having diverse economies, having out-sized number of high paying jobs, both being financial centers, both being World class cities, bath having been built up, so the only way to accomodate more housing is through densification.

  11. AndrewB

    at 11:19 pm

    I feel like Chicago is a better comparison and they’re our actual sister city as well. We always compare to New York because we suffer from little sibling syndrome. The sheer air of money and unattainability in the atmosphere of New York cannot be compared. NY is a city I could only dream of RENTING let alone ownership. When I was in NY just this past fall I passed some Realtor offices and saw some listings for rent. The going rate for a 2 bedroom in Chelsea is about 6000 a month. Makes our “high rents” look absolutely paltry. Hell I bet even the rental rates in the upper West side and Harlem are more expensive than our most expensive rents.

  12. condodweller

    at 12:56 pm

    It’s fun to compare NY to Toronto every once in a while, but it’s also kind of pointless. While you can look at a similar neighbourhood for comparison, generally the quality of NY condos are much higher both in design and finishing. I watched the million dollar listings NY to get a glimpse of what’s available and at what price. While most condos in Toronto typically are the same design and layout even with larger units which hare simply larger scale of the smaller ones, in NY you can get some very unique layouts and features which I don’t know if you can even find in Toronto.

    In other words we are not comparing apples to apples even if you look in similar neighbourhoods. I recall seeing an ad for a condo building in Yorkville with featured similar to NY i.e. one/two units per floor, large terrace, in suite saunas, really special over sized spa like bathrooms, sufficient storage space etc. (I don’t recall the name of the building) which I thought set it aside from the bland run of the mill condos in Toronto, but and it’s a big but, it also came with NY style pricing. I’d be curious if the project survived and construction began.

    In terms of value I think if you had the means you could have picked up a good deal in the last few years in NY as that 3.5 multiple was probably smaller when CAD was at 1.10 and the RE market crashed in the US although I believe it was not as bad in NY. Conversely it was probably much larger before the crash and CAD at .67.

  13. Zack

    at 12:20 pm

    If you are looking for a better comparison to Toronto pricing, a better barometer is Ottawa. People get paid roughly the same as in Toronto, with people in Ottawa earning a little more for quintiles 2 through 5, with the top quintile in Toronto earning rather substantially more than in Ottawa. Per square foot prices for newer builds are roughly $400-600, with a few buildings getting up to $2000/foot if they have something special. As a much smaller city, tons of deals can be had on the edges of downtown, although a lot of the desirable neighbourhoods are being razed for modern townhomes priced around the $600-750K mark. Still probably about 30% cheaper than Toronto, but without the pressure of international investors and Gen Yers looking to move into single family homes.

  14. lawmom

    at 11:30 pm

    Having recently moved here from Manhattan, trying to compare Toronto to NYC is like comparing apples and oranges; or more accurately, apples and rocks. I like Toronto. I’m glad that I’m here; but if you’re doing the comparison then Toronto is much more like Chicago, as other commenters have pointed out (I spent significant time in both cities). Manhattan is, of course, an island. The outer boroughs’ value is dictated by proximity and ease of access to Manhattan. Toronto has a lot of things going for it, but it ain’t NYC and never will be.

  15. Dix Hills Realtor

    at 1:18 am

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  16. Dix Hills Realtor

    at 1:22 am

    This blog describes the more attractive varieties of Luxury Homes, thanks for the nice information.
    I appreciate your work that makes this blog useful in the searching for Long Island Luxury Homes.

    Dix Hills Realtor

  17. Brian

    at 8:17 pm

    Toronto is fourth largest city in north america behind Mexico city, new york, los angeles…..ahead of Chicago which is fifth, just so you know, and your children know.

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    at 7:37 am

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