Yeah, they did, in my opinion. But it was out of necessity, it would seem.
There was an article in the Toronto Star on the weekend that, once again, my readers have seen and asked me to comment on.
Keep in mind that even discussing this is a lose-lose situation, since some Realtors agree with TREB, and some don’t. Most want to just let this blow over, but when I explain what’s really going on, you’ll realize that TREB is trying to solve one problem by potentially creating another…
I guess nothing gets by you guys eh?
The Toronto Star article came out on Saturday, and several people commented on my blog on Monday asking for my thoughts, and I received five emails as well.
Forgive me for just hoping that nobody would notice! 🙂
It’s an extremely sensitive subject, and I guess I don’t want to put a target on my back with TREB. A couple people have asked, “What are the ramifications? Can TREB shut you down?” Not really. But they can, as they very bluntly pointed out, “suspend or terminate access to the TREB MLS system immediately and without further notice.”
That would make it impossible for me to job. So it’s not like killing somebody, but rather cutting off their arms and legs, and leaving them alone with no food or water.
On Thursday evening of last week, my manager came into my office and told me, “You might have to shut down your Pick5 videos for a while.”
I knew right away that this was just the beginning of something bigger.
He went on to explain that a memo had been sent out, by TREB, that threatened to shut down access to MLS for any Realtors who were giving out “sold prices” on their websites, applications, or through any medium.
I haven’t been “giving out sold data” but rather I have been referencing sold prices in my Pick5 videos in attempts to find “comparable sales” to the properties that I’m reviewing.
The whole idea of Pick5 – me “advertising” a competitor’s listing, wouldn’t fly, if not for that “Virtual Office Website” that I’ve created, by only allowing access to people who sign in with a password.
It’s VOW’s like mine, and like Bosley’s mobile phone app (not to mention other innovative initiatives by other Realtors and brokerages), that are the future of real estate, in my opinion.
But there is a much larger issue at stake here, and it isn’t about my Pick5.
Let me explain…
As many you are aware, the Competition Bureau has been after organized real estate in Canada for some time. They have made requests – some absolutely outrageous, and some more reasonable.
As an example of the outrageous requests, it was Melanie Aitken, the former head of the Competition Bureau, that suggested anybody in Canada should be able to use the MLS system to sell their home, regardless of whether or not they list with a Realtor.
Think what you want about real estate, but you have to admit that this suggestion is ludicrous.
MLS was invented, trademarked, and has always been owned by Realtors.
It’s like the Competition Bureau saying, to Cadillac, “You have a way better location and better signage than the guy selling Fords, so we want you to sell Fords on your lot.”
Some of the Competition Bureau’s other ideas and suggestions, which they believe will serve the public’s interest, directly conflict with sections of the Privacy Act.
And when it comes to “sold prices,” the Competition Bureau fought this battle in 2014, and lost. They have appealed, and a new court date has been set for May of 2015.
The issue here isn’t that Realtors are “hoarding” sale data, or “keeping it behind lock and key,” but the Competition Bureau would have you believe that’s the case.
Sale prices are a matter of public record, and after a sale closes, anybody can go downtown, pay a fee, and get a sale price. They can also subscribe to services like Geowarehouse, for a couple thousand dollars, and have sale prices at their fingertips.
But what if they want it now? What if they don’t want to leave the comforts of their home or office, and don’t want to line up in a government office downtown?
Well that seems to be the issue at hand. Personally, I don’t think the public has a “right” to this information, otherwise I might complain to the Competition Bureau that I don’t want to line up at Tim Horton’s for my coffee and pay a fee, but rather I want Bosley to install a Timmy’s kiosk here at the office. (actually, that’s not a bad idea…)
If we take the argument one step further, which I know readers are going to do, then let’s ask, “should Realtors, despite not having to give out sold prices, give it out anyways?”
Yes. Yes they should.
I do it.
Bosley Real Estate does it via their mobile phone app.
And tons of other brokerages do it as well.
But TREB is caught between a rock and a hard place.
They’ve spent several years, and a ton of money fighting the Competition Bureau in court, and if they caved now on one issue, it would open the floodgates to others.
And if the Competition Bureau can show during the upcoming legal proceeding in May that “all the Realtors are out there giving sold prices out anyways,” then TREB will have a tough time explaining why the Competition Bureau is wrong, and why the government shouldn’t force their hand.
It’s for this reason that TREB sent out a memo last Thursday explaining, once again, that any members found to be in violation of the TREB user agreement can have their access to MLS suspended or terminated.
They had no choice, in my opinion.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Bosley Real Estate designed an app one year ago that geographically plots every single house for sale on a map, and it updates as you move around.
I think it’s one of the most innovative things I’ve seen in real estate in all my time in the business, and I use the app on a daily basis.
The interface for MLS and Realtor.ca are awful. Absolutely, positively, awful. So what’s easier than using your thumb and forefinger, and scrolling along a map to find a property you’re interested in? I was sitting at an inspection on Saturday with my clients who just purchased a house on Bloomfield Avenue, and my clients’ mother asked about a listing in her building at the Printer’s Row on Logan Avenue. I opened the Bosley app, scrolled southeast from where the map plotted me on Bloomfield, and found the listing in seconds. Had I used www.realtor.ca, It would have taken me five minutes to click this or that, accept terms of use, try to type words in a tiny field, click drop-down arrows, and eventually, I’d have given up.
Bosley’s app isn’t the only innovative product out there. I’ve said on numerous occasions that John Pasalis’ Realosophy is an incredibly forward-thinking way of interacting with buyers and sellers, and that www.condos.ca is a massive undertaking that deserves credit.
But in 2015, it’s becoming increasingly difficult to move forward with new initiatives if we’re being hampered by “old rules,” many of which just aren’t realistic in today’s world.
The decision about whether or not Realtors should give out sold prices shouldn’t be one that the Competition Bureau makes. It should be up to us, and personally, I think we should freely give the information.
Tom Bosley told me on Tuesday, “We’re not the providers of data, but rather the interpreters.”
It’s true.
I don’t think Realtors will do any more business if we safeguard sale prices, nor do I think we’ll do any less business if the sale prices are readily available.
There is one more part to this, however, that the public, and the Competition Bureau, might not understand. And that is simply that you can not be expected to give out sold prices before the transaction is closed. If a house sells on February 11th, and closes on March 29th, you can’t have the sale price floating freely around on the Internet, because if the deal falls apart, then everybody is privy to the terms of that deal.
That’s the issue with websites such as www.tosolds.ca, which gives out EVERY sale price, as soon as it’s updated on MLS.
And when it comes to the aforementioned www.tosolds.ca, I think we’re all eager to see what happens if and when (more of a “when”) websites like www.tosolds.ca don’t comply with TREB’s “threat,” because personally, I don’t think TREB will follow through and shut them down.
Let’s not forget what is at stake here.
There is still a $750 Million lawsuit hanging over CREA, OREA, TREB, and about 70 individuals, as Lawrence Dale looks to get paid. He’s the person who started “Realty Sellers,” as well as www.tosolds.ca, among others.
I don’t believe Mr. Dale is a crusader, fighting for the public interest. I think he’s a very shrewd man that planned a course of action that could get him paid. He started his websites to pick a fight with organized real estate, which happened to coincide with the Competition Bureau’s look into MLS.
So will TREB follow through with their threat and shut down access for those people who are not adhering to the rules? That remains to be seen.
Bosley Real Estate has taken sold data off of their mobile phone app, as they were requested to do by the Toronto Real Estate Board. They are playing by the rules – and the issue isn’t whether those rules are right or wrong, or will exist in a year, but rather the issue is what are those rules today.
I see both sides to this issue.
I think it’s only a matter of time before TREB authorizes us to give out sold data, whether that’s through a Virtual Office Website, or freely on the Internet or in newsletters.
You can pick up the phone and call any Realtor in the city right now and ask for a sale price, and they’ll give it to you.
So aren’t we splitting hairs, here?
TREB did what they thought was right, on behalf of Realtors. In the process, they’ve angered the very Realtors that they serve.
It’s a true Catch-22, and we’re all playing a waiting game until May…
Pete
at 8:08 am
Not sure why you find realtor.ca so hard to use – it has a map feature as well, as does their app. Personally I like the information on condos.ca, but creating searches is downright frustrating.
myeo
at 8:15 am
When the Province of Ontario outsourced to Teranet the responsibility of building and maintaining the electronic land registry system, the Province also effectively gave Teranet a monopoly to package and sell sales information in the form of Geowarehouse. Likewise, when the Province created MPAC to manage the assessment system in Ontario, a monopoly of packaging and selling assessment information was created in the form of Property Line and through MPAC’s sale of the assessment roll to private companies.
When the government uses its power to outsource public property like land registry and assessment and allows private entities to profit as monopolies, one could argue this is a form of tyranny. I’m in the camp that believes raw sales and assessment information should be entirely in the public domain.
That being said, anything that is not raw and has been improved or has had value added by private entities should be subject to copyright. I have no problem with TREB, Teranet or MPAC protecting intellectual property, so long as everyone has access to the raw data that is public to ensure a level playing field. This would also give TREB much more incentive to improve their website and concentrate on value added rather than protecting what doesn’t necessarily exclusively belong the their corporation.
Huuk
at 12:38 pm
This is the smartest answer to a challenging question. Well done.
Andrew
at 8:47 am
Take one look at zillow.com in the US and you’ll see what we’re missing up here in Canada. I can see historical sales prices of every property and their interface is great. Why can’t we have that up here in Canada? One reason: TREB. I think the competition bureau is serving the best interests of the public. Your analogy of Cadillac having to sell Fords on their lot is flawed. A better analogy would be an alternate universe where every car manufacturer (Cadillac, Ford, GM) has to sell their car on the same lot run by TREB. If they start their own lot then they won`t sell any cars because people only go car shopping on the TREB car lot. In that case yes, I think the bureau would be correct in forcing the TREB car lot to sell cars from any manufacturer.
Also this idea of an ordinary consumer having to pay thousands of dollars to geowarehouse just to see sales data isn’t realistic, not many people could afford to do that. Imagine if to see the latest stock prices on the TSX we had to pay thousands of dollars or call up our broker to get a quote? That’s a lot of money to pay for data that should be in public domain: who owns the land in our country!
jeff316
at 9:06 am
David’s analogy is correct. Yours is wrong.
You, as a seller, don’t have to sell your house via TREB. It is one option. You can go private, or through a third-party like Propertyguys if you don’t want to sell through the system.
What the Bureau is saying is that TREB has done such a good job that it should have to accommodate others whose products are inferior. It’s part of the recent “consumer protection” crusade that governments like to do to get you feeling like they’re on your side, but in this case it’s incoherent.
Too often we confused “what we want” with “what should happen.” Most often, they’re not the same thing.
Appraiser
at 9:10 am
@Andrew: What you fail to realize is that members of TREB have to pay for the data from Geowarehouse as well, at full price. So what you’re saying is that it is perfectly fair to have someone else pay for the data and then give it you for free?
Reminds me of an Austin Powers quote, “…and I want a solid gold toilet, but it wasn’t in the cards.”
Capital One
at 10:50 am
I agree with your first statement 100%. We absolutely need something like zillow. They only plausible reason that I can think to oppose it is self-preservation (of TREB). The privacy angle seems a bit thin.
However, I agree with the analogy. Realtors built and own mls.ca. It’s a bit rich to force them to do use it in a way they don’t want to.
On the other hand, TREB and realtors should not object to viewpoint.ca or zillow.com from opening shop here. If TREB starts to punish realtors from using these, it’s time for realtors to start a competing board as TREB would just be working in their own best interest – not realtors, not buyers, not sellers.
CO
housingbear
at 12:25 pm
Love the blog but I also think your analogy is seriously flawed
<<>
MLS is a near monopoly in Canada. There are not many options for buyers and sellers who are looking to get a fair price. When industries operate under monopoly it is in the public interest to deregulate and create a level playing field and competition. I don’t see why the MLS should be exempt.
Long Time Realtor
at 1:22 pm
MLS is a registered industry trademark utilized by licenced real estate salespeople and brokers who are members of the Canadian Real Estate Association, under the jurisdiction of provincial and territorial statute. Trading in real estate is a regulated industry, not unlike many other industries.
There are thousands of Realtors and hundreds of brokerages all competing for the same business with a multitude of business models and commission options to choose from. There are also a plethors of FSBO companies and advertising websites to choose from. That they aren’t very effective or have low market share is testament to the professionalism and effectiveness of Realtors.
Nobody is forced to use a Realtor. However, even Zillow and Trulia in the U.S. have conceded that after a decade of trying to reduce or even eliminate Realtors from the home buying equation, it just didn’t work.
P.S. Windows Operating System has a 91% worldwide market share. Are they a monopoly, or just the best at what they do?
Darren
at 1:42 pm
FYI, Duproprio – what comfree is called in Quebec – is very successful. I don’t know the exact numbers, but I know they have more than 30% of the market. I think it’s just a matter of time before similar numbers reach the rest of the country.
Long Time Realtor
at 2:57 pm
@Darren. Nice try but you are way off base on your numbers.
Duproprio was started in 1997 and has affiliates all over the country. It “brags” that it has now sold 125,000 properties natinally since inception (18 years), which is less than 7,000 properties per year on average.
Last year CREA members sold 461,000 homes. Does that look like 30% market share to you?
You want a good laugh. Duproprio owner Nicolas Bouchard listed his own property with a Broker.
http://www.montrealex.com/News.php/chalet-partly-owned-by-duproprio-co-founder-listed-with-broker
For another laugh: Colby Sambrotto, founder and former chief operating officer of ForSalebyOwner.com, paid a six-per-cent commission to a broker to sell his New York City apartment, after he failed to sell it himself, the Wall Street Journal reported.
Darren
at 5:09 pm
First, I said Quebec, not Canada.
Secondly, the number on their website is 170,000 not 125,000. I admit that doesn’t sound all that impressive, but keep in mind that most of those numbers are from Quebec based transactions
.
I’ve seen market share numbers from 2 independent sources. One I saw about 3 years ago and I think it said that in Quebec it’s 36%, but I can’t find that link anymore. I did find a more recent link that says it’s around 30%.
So my point stands, FSBO is a significant part of the Quebec market.
Mike
at 2:56 pm
Securities are a “regulated industry” and the information relating to the trading of stocks belongs to the actual brokers and exchanges (in turn owned by the brokerages) but I can find out the price of Bell in about ten seconds flat, I can find what it sold for yesterday and five years ago. I can see how many shares were traded and I can find out all the information I need in order to make an informed purchase without contacting anyone, subscribing to any ting or stealing anything.
Long Time Realtor
at 3:04 pm
@Mike: Yeah, but do you know the name and address of the owner of the shares as well as when and how many shares they traded?
Comparing the stock market to real estate has severe limitations.
Mike
at 3:36 pm
That information is available but not maintained by the actual exchanges, who in my example were the information providers. The information you’re talking about is readily available trough other free means, like a phone book or reverse directory.
joel
at 9:10 pm
All that needs to be provided is the amount houses were sold for and when. Any of the other information can be saved for realtors that pay for the services you have mentioned. There is no need for the owners names, but the sales prices are public domain and should be released and easily accessible. This can even and I think should be once the house is closed. I personally feel that sold prices should not be provided to other realtors until sold either.
Fro Jo
at 1:17 pm
I guess it’s still a housing “market” even when price discovery is such an opaque and byzantine process for the buyer.
What a a lousy way to run a market. The government should step in an make the market free-er! (Wait, what?)
Market Guy
at 1:31 pm
@ Fro Jo:
Every ounce of gold is the same. A common share of a company is the same as the rest.
When every asset within the “market” is unique, price discovery is bound to be difficult.
Fro Jo
at 2:08 pm
Absolutely right, MG. I went too far for snark-effect. Thanks.
Joel
at 1:28 pm
What would be the implication if someone paid or a subscription to geowarehouse, or crown funded it, then made that information available to anyone that wanted it? This could potentially get around the problem. A thousand people each pitching in $2 a year…
Kyle
at 2:30 pm
I think that would be a violation of the Geowarehouses terms of use:
http://www.geowarehouse.ca/marketing/restrictions-concerning-how-the-enhanced-sales-report-can-be-used.php
Mike
at 2:51 pm
MLS is being used by TREB as a tool and not a business, that’s the issue here. You look at a company like TMX (the company that owns the Toronto Stock Exchange) they make their money in three businesses: listing companies, providing a secondary exchange and information.
Back in the day if you wanted a quote on a stock you had to call your broker or settle with yesterday’s price in the news paper, the the industry was democratised. You can now find a stock price on pretty much any website but that price will have been delayed 15 minutes. If you want a real time price you need a subscription. If you want to know market dept then you need a different subscription and-so-on-and-so on. You can generally find historical information going back about 5-years (I think). TMX is also owned by its users, banks and pension funds, who rely on the information produced to conduct business.
I think there would be a lot more screaming if the owners of TMX decided that only people who used their brokerages could gain access to the information they produce; your RBC Action Direct account would be useless. Instead you’d need to call up a broker who’s company held ownership in TMX Group.
Currently MLS only provides (limited) information about what’s happening in the market on listings that are being offered for sale. Information about houses not listed is locked. Even key information on listed homes is locked away, such as days on market, previous selling price and taxes is only accessible by a broker. Now one may argue that that information can be found out if someone was willing to do the leg work but then you have schedules and inclusions that don’t make it on the public listings. Information that is relevant to someone who wants to make an offer.
At some point the MLS system is going to have to release more information to the public though some channel or else be forced to share it all at their expense.
Long Time Realtor
at 5:28 pm
@Mike:
So this critical data that you refer to would be – “Information that is relevant to someone who wants to make an offer.”
Interesting. So why wouldn’t you engage the services of a Realtor to provide you with this critical info before submitting an offer? (By the way it’s free).
Or could it be that you are referring to buying privately? In which case you would like Realtors to provide you with all of the relevant data on their website for free, before cutting them out of the deal, somehow imagining that you are saving money?
Here’s the deal. You are either serious about buying or you a tire kicker. But you can’t be a serious tire kicker.
Mike
at 5:47 pm
The point is you shouldn’t need to engage a realtor in order to purchase a house.
I can see you have a dog in this fight but you’re going to have to recognise that at some point the information will be made available. Either it’s provided and controlled by MLS or it’s forced to be released and MLS will have its terms dictated to it.
It’s happened before and it will happen again, the argument that the information is “your” information and that you paid for it, doesn’t hold water.
You don’t need to buy your natural gas from Enbridge but they own the pipeline infrastructure here in Toronto, you don’t need to pay Rogers for your DSL but it comes in via their copper, that call you made on your Wind cell phone might have been transmitted across a Telus tower and your phone company might not be Bell. All examples where resistance to share what they “built and paid” for resulted in legislated requirements to share.
As a real estate professional you need to focus your time and effort into building your business based on relationships and knowledge because you won’t last long acting as a provider of information.
Long Time Realtor
at 8:42 pm
@ Mike:
“All examples where resistance to share what they “built and paid” for resulted in legislated requirements to share.”
Yeah, but not for free! Not only are the builders of the infrastructure getting paid in perpetuity, but as far as I can tell NOBODY gets their gas or cell phone calls for free either. Everybody pays.
Hey, I want all my stuff for free too!
Are you really that cheap?
By the way, analogy is the weakest form of debate. Try to stay on topic.
P.S. I’ve been a Realtor since 1986. Do you have any other theories about longevity?
Mike
at 10:46 pm
If you’re looking for me to speculate on your longevity I will: you married well and maintain your real estate license to answer the dreaded cocktail party question, “what is it that you do”.
As long as you pay your desk fees, you’re a realtor.
ScottyP
at 12:33 am
Ouch. That’s cold, Mike.
Just remember the old adage: Nothing is free: not even porn. (Or so the trojan embedded in my computer once told me.)
Observer
at 7:46 am
No reason to sulk there Mikey. When you’re out of ammo, it’s best not to post anything.
Appraiser
at 8:15 am
Hey David,
As you’ve stated above, it’s pretty clear that the MLS is the life-line for real estate professionals, self included. I maintain my real estate licence and take all of the courses, pay the associated fees, membership dues and insurance premiums so that I can be a member of TREB for only one reason – MLS access (primarily sold data). And I don’t begrudge it one bit, as it is the cost of doing business. As required, I adhere strictly to the confidentiality and privacy issues surrounding the deeply personal information that we have access to.
What many lay people may not realize, is that licenced real estate salespeople and brokers do NOT have to be members of any real estate board or CREA. If MLS is opened to the public, why would registrants need to be members of TREB, or any other board for that matter?
Joel
at 8:27 am
I don’t think everyone needs access to mls at the same level as a realtor that pays for it. However, sold info is public record and the basic information should be easily accessible to the public.
Kyle
at 9:30 am
I agree that sold info is public record and should be made available, but i think everyone is barking up the wrong tree. I don’t think it is mls that should be responsible for exposing sold info to the public. In fact someone please correct me if i’m wrong, the sold info in mls, is only for properties sold over mls, and doesn’t include private transactions, deemed dispositions, commercial transactions, etc. IMO, the real reason why sold info isn’t widely accessible is because the Government of Ontario sold the rights to access that public info to Teranet in 1991, and the rest of the rights to a consortium of investors in 2003. Teranet then resells that access to Industry professionals. In my opinion it is them that are making this public info difficult or cost prohibitive for individuals to access, as that is their business model. They are the ones keeping it behind lock and key with the permission of the Government of Ontario.
http://www.teranet.ca/our-company/history
Appraiser
at 9:41 am
@Joel: For clarification. Real Property sold information is part of the public record and entered in to the land registry system only after the deal closes, which can take several months from the date of a firm sale. In essence, much of TREB’s most recent sold data is in fact pending transactions – the vast majority of which do successfully close. Realtors do not control access to Land Registry data, they have to pay extra for it just like everybody else.
Appraisers and Realtors rarely utilize land registry sold data when completing appraisal reports or CMA’s, as the information is stale-dated. Recent MLS firm sale transactions are far more relevant.
Are you stating that MLS sold info is part of the public record and should therefore be easily accessible to the public? Because that would be erroneous.
Fro Jo
at 12:26 pm
Appraiser, last month I directed a disrespectful comment at you under one of your comments on this blog. My apologies for having done that. Every so often I have a bad morning, but you should not have been the target. I’m sorry.
Appraiser
at 2:59 pm
@ Fro Jo: Thank-you, apology accepted. No hard feelings. Cheers.
joel
at 1:20 pm
@Kyle, thanks for that I was unaware
@appraiser I think that what Kyle wrote above addresses the information I was commenting on. MLS shouldn’t be providing this information to the public if it doesn’t want to, but actual sold data should be more accessible to the public. (Even if it is only after a property has closed)